Gameshadow has Sea Wolves for sale, so I contacted the CEO and told the about SW's

[Tuddley3]

Since I install the 1.4 Patch from Gameshadow, last week in fact for a SH3 reinstall, I noticed the Sea Wolves Expansion Pack for sale there(right under the Patch update). So I took the liberty of speaking out for all the hard working Freeware modders here at Subsim.

I was surprised when I received an Email Reply from the Founder and COO of the company. So I will share with you,my friends, my entire experience with Gameshadow. I suggest you read them from bottom to top, due to the order they come with Email. The bottom is where I first Contacted them through an Email, the Middle is Tony Treadwell replying back to me, and finally the top portion is me asking for him to show him self and interact with all of you about this Sea Wolves issue.

Well, I took some advice, and removed the Emails from this thread just in case. For those of you whom have replied, I appreciate the support in this issue. Thanks all !!

[Safe-Keeper]

Good man.

[Dowly]

Thanks Tuddley3! You should get a medal for that! :rock:

[Tuddley3]

Thanks guys, I appreciate the positive remarks so far. I was hessitant to post this thread at first, but maybe it was OK after all.:D

[Jimbuna]

Bravo Tuddley :up: ...but the big question is...Will he register here ? and if he does..will he announce his arrival ? :D

[GlobalExplorer]

Seriously, you won`t achieve anything with your initiative if you post sensitive correspondence in public forums. Even if the dude was very sympathetic to your plea, you will probably not hear from him again now. Copyright matters are a very serious affair. So discussing them here would simply not be professional, and could be harmful to his career. Did you think about that?

God luck though.

GE

[melnibonian]

Seriously, you won`t achieve anything with your initiative if you post sensitive correspondence in public forums. Even if the dude was very sympathetic to your plea, you will probably not hear from him again now. Copyright matters are a very serious affair. So discussing them here would simply not be professional, and could be harmful to his career. Did you think about that?

God luck though.

GE

Unfortunatelly GlobalExplorer is correct. Personal correspondence should be personal. In any case good luck with it and I really hope you're succesfull.

[Dowly]

Seriously, you won`t achieve anything with your initiative if you post sensitive correspondence in public forums. Even if the dude was very sympathetic to your plea, you will probably not hear from him again now. Copyright matters are a very serious affair. So discussing them here would simply not be professional, and could be harmful to his career. Did you think about that?

God luck though.

GE

He doesnt have to say a word. We just point him to the "Seawolves contains mods by..." thread.

[HunterICX]

Seriously, you won`t achieve anything with your initiative if you post sensitive correspondence in public forums. Even if the dude was very sympathetic to your plea, you will probably not hear from him again now. Copyright matters are a very serious affair. So discussing them here would simply not be professional, and could be harmful to his career. Did you think about that?

God luck though.

GE

He doesnt have to worry about his career, if they discover the truth about X1 what they have done with the freeware mods here on the communities they see that X1 has broken rules about the rights of freeware.

Note Right of Freeware:
Freeware. The reproduction and distribution of freeware is allowed and encouraged as long as it is not for profit and with the condition that derivative works must also be designated as freeware. That means that you cannot take freeware, modify or extend it, and then sell it as commercial or shareware software. For additional information, please see Shareware, Freeware & Public Domain Software

which they did, they took freeware mods , they modificated it and are now making profit of it.

HunterICX

[Dowly]

Note Right of Freeware:
Freeware. The reproduction and distribution of freeware is allowed and encouraged as long as it is not for profit and with the condition that derivative works must also be designated as freeware. That means that you cannot take freeware, modify or extend it, and then sell it as commercial or shareware software. For additional information, please see Shareware, Freeware & Public Domain Software
HunterICX

But does this apply only to freewares that are made from a scratch by someone or will this apply to mods that are modifications of Ubi owned files? X1 did legally nothing wrong as far as I know, just morally.

[stabiz]

Very interesting. Where will this go?

Tuddley, you are a true idealist! Kudos!

[mr chris]

Very interesting. Where will this go?

Tuddley, you are a true idealist! Kudos!

Yeah well done Tuddley you have big balls my friend:up: :rock:

[Tuddley3]

No Mr Chris, X1 has big balls and no brains. I'm just standing up for my brothers who work so hard to make SH3 so much more enjoyable than ever imagined. They all put their hearts and free time into their work, and for all of us to share. BTW, some of the programs the Modders use is not cheap, so they have also invested their own money into these freeware projects.

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m65/tuddley3/SH3%20Screenies/boycottx17zg.jpg

[Wulfmann]

Note Right of Freeware:
Freeware. The reproduction and distribution of freeware is allowed and encouraged as long as it is not for profit and with the condition that derivative works must also be designated as freeware. That means that you cannot take freeware, modify or extend it, and then sell it as commercial or shareware software. For additional information, please see Shareware, Freeware & Public Domain Software
HunterICX
But does this apply only to freewares that are made from a scratch by someone or will this apply to mods that are modifications of Ubi owned files? X1 did legally nothing wrong as far as I know, just morally.

A point lost on the mob out for blood!
Fact is, as we have gone over, the user agreement everyone that installs SH3 must click states we agree not to modify any file and UBI owns the rights to these files and no one else.
That said any mod made of any SH3 file belongs to UBI soft and they gave permission to X-1 to make their add ons and no other group has be granted such permission.
SW has used files that they are legally entitled to and like it or not that is a legal fact.
Don't agree with UBI's user agreement?
Don't install the game!
Click "I agree" and you have authorized UBI and anyone they designate to use the files they own.
To say SW has stolen material is inaccurate and false.
Now lets all make this into something that disgust UBI to the point they want to never be bothered with making Sub sims again.
Don’t forget to start a ban Wulfmann thread because anyone that has a different view should never be tolerated!
The mod community, more than any other has improved this game for people such as myself but an add on like SW reaches a different audience that also expands our community and gives more incentive for devs to desire making future (profitable) games.
The us or them lets get those guys has been a negative force that X-1 and the mod community share in impropriety.
No one that has involved themselves in this debate has improved SH3 but all have shared in making the community look petty.
Now, we want to drag Gameshadow into the mud so they must choose to alienate a major dev or put down the mod community.
Yeah, that will be a big help!

Wulfmann

[Tuddley3]

[quote=Dowly][quote=HunterICX]

The mod community, more than any other has improved this game for people such as myself but an add on like SW reaches a different audience that also expands our community and gives more incentive for devs to desire making future (profitable) games.
The us or them lets get those guys has been a negative force that X-1 and the mod community share in impropriety.
No one that has involved themselves in this debate has improved SH3 but all have shared in making the community look petty.
Now, we want to drag Gameshadow into the mud so they must choose to alienate a major dev or put down the mod community.
Yeah, that will be a big help!

Wulfmann

What I can tell from Mr Treadwell's reply, maybe he could include any future GW's, UBWA, NYGM supermods to Gameshadow. Now tell me, would you take the freeware over the X1 $20 product(from what I here is not as good as OUR FREEWARE stuff) ? In no way am I dragging Gameshadow in the mud, why pay for free stuff, I didn't pay for the Patch, and am definitaly not going to pay for something I can get for free. I think the Freeware Modders put more heart and soul into their work, and all they get is a pat on the back from us and not a pay check(Maybe a little Subsim Fame from guys like me looking up to people like Anvart , KptLehmann, Hansolo, and JScones as someone I would probably ask for an autograph from. These folks and at least a dozen more don't get the thanks they deserve, mean while X1 slaps them in the face as they laugh at them on the way to the bank).

Maybe I bit off more than I can chew, but atleast I'm getting my point across, and thank all those who are standing behind me on this.

BTW, are you proud of me for not knocking you Wulfmann, I beleive we've argued enough at each other, and will comment no further against you.

[stabiz]

It would be fun to count how many posts Wulfmann have done in non-X1 related threads. Nah, maybe not.

[AVGWarhawk]

I would have to agree with Wolfman on this point. The fine print is clearly written. All that might become of this is if the fellow agrees that SW is just a copy of GW and any future add on will be scrutinized before any type of sale of the add on is cleared. That is probably the best outcome that could come of this. Reason being is SH4 will be out and the modders at it again. I do however find it disturbing that he looks to co-promote the hard work of the GW mod team...something smell rotten in Denmark on this. No promotion outside of UBI and Subsim is needed. The new GWX mod is running through the forums like wildfire as it is. Sounds like a co-promotion of UBI and Gameshadow to me.

[Gizzmoe]

Tuddley, unfortunately the way you contacted him was not very professional, the "may discontinue using Gameshadow if Sea Wolves is continued to be part of this great Website" part was especially lame IMO. I also agree that it wasn´t a good idea to post the emails. He asked you for details and it would have been much better if you´d presented him some (links to certain posts containing evidence), instead of asking him to come here and start a thread about SW.

I give you an A for effort, but so far only an F for execution. ;)

[flyingdane]

Yep" its like waiting for the last episode of ...(The last of the summer wine).."Re-runs" that all. :rotfl:

[The Noob]

I hope this gets an positive outcome and X1's SW gets thier b*** kicked. :yep:

[P_Funk]

I don't think that contacting them via email and then saying that the association between the site and a controversial product might cause him to cease his association with them was particularly bad. Obviously since he got the attention of the CEO it was actually effective. We say he wasn't professional but then again an end user isn't a professional and may lodge a complaint however he sees fit.

However it is true that the CEO won't ever post here. What you can do is inform him directly of the issue and then express the feelings of the community. Believe it or not businessmen take the threat of not returning for future services very seriously. If he responded this confirms that.

I think that what should be done now is to collect the best threads on subsim about the X1 scandal and attach them to an email to the CEO along with a carefully worded explanation of the community's feelings.

Maybe even a petition to remove SW with a number of attached emails or an individual email campaign would be in order if enough people feel obliged to carry this forward.

Also any further correspondence I think should include a request of permission to publish the emails to the community. Just wanna keep it all clean on our end.

[Tuddley3]

UPDATE

Wow, I just received some more info from Mr Treadwell. He really is into helping his Users/Customers. I knew I could count on him:

Email removed. Thanks for the advice Kylania .

[Jimbuna]

Very well done sir! :D

[kylania]

COO is Chief Operating Officer, like a CEO but a guy that actually does stuff. :)

I would suggest removing all private emails from this thread and locking it, if Mr Treadwell wants to start a discussion on here fine, but this thread can only end in pain and sorrow. :)

[mr chris]

I would suggest removing all private emails from this thread and locking it, if Mr Treadwell wants to start a discussion on here fine, but this thread can only end in pain and sorrow. :)

You took the words out of my mouth.:doh:
Good work Tuddley:up:

[Tuddley3]

Before I kindly ask Neal to take care of locking thread, I want to tell you all I logged on at Gameshadow and see he did remove Sea Wolves for the time being. Mr Treadwell certainly has done his job in taking care of his "Users Concerns".

[d@rk51d3]

Meanwhile another site is trying to "sell" GWX.

Donate to us and we'll let you download it.......:shifty:

[Tuddley3]

Yea, don't upload GWX to rapidshare :down:

Doh! , before I forget, I am moving this week to a new apartment. This means I will be without internet for a week, I think until the 27th until the cable company hooks me back up. Just in time for the visit. So I hope you don't think I'm hiding when Mr Treadwell pays us a visit.

[GlobalExplorer]

Note Right of Freeware:
Freeware. The reproduction and distribution of freeware is allowed and encouraged as long as it is not for profit and with the condition that derivative works must also be designated as freeware. That means that you cannot take freeware, modify or extend it, and then sell it as commercial or shareware software. For additional information, please see Shareware, Freeware & Public Domain Software
HunterICX
But does this apply only to freewares that are made from a scratch by someone or will this apply to mods that are modifications of Ubi owned files? X1 did legally nothing wrong as far as I know, just morally.

A point lost on the mob out for blood!
Fact is, as we have gone over, the user agreement everyone that installs SH3 must click states we agree not to modify any file and UBI owns the rights to these files and no one else.
That said any mod made of any SH3 file belongs to UBI soft and they gave permission to X-1 to make their add ons and no other group has be granted such permission.
SW has used files that they are legally entitled to and like it or not that is a legal fact.
Don't agree with UBI's user agreement?
Don't install the game!
Click "I agree" and you have authorized UBI and anyone they designate to use the files they own.
To say SW has stolen material is inaccurate and false.
Now lets all make this into something that disgust UBI to the point they want to never be bothered with making Sub sims again.
Don’t forget to start a ban Wulfmann thread because anyone that has a different view should never be tolerated!
The mod community, more than any other has improved this game for people such as myself but an add on like SW reaches a different audience that also expands our community and gives more incentive for devs to desire making future (profitable) games.
The us or them lets get those guys has been a negative force that X-1 and the mod community share in impropriety.
No one that has involved themselves in this debate has improved SH3 but all have shared in making the community look petty.
Now, we want to drag Gameshadow into the mud so they must choose to alienate a major dev or put down the mod community.
Yeah, that will be a big help!

Wulfmann

Don't want to start another argument, but imo you are right and wrong at the same time:

Right: Modding means taking files from a copyrighted product, applying changes and redistributing them over the internet. It's a breach of copyright that is tolerated most of the time, but of course the intellectual property on the derivates still belongs to the original author - and this means, a modders work is NEVER protected by copyright law, and that's why we never hear of such cases where a modder successfully goes to court over his work. This is very important to realize for every person involved in modifying computer games, because I see there are still a lot of naive conceptions about this topic.

Wrong: Your argument that every customer of UBI, because he accepted the EULA, has already agreed that companies like X1 can legally repackage his modified files from the internet in commercial products: it's lame and it's yellow. It is also legally baseless because EULA's are not valid in most countries outside the US. The last time I checked X1 was a german company, and in Germany most EULAs are not protected by the law*.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lizenz

*In legal matters, the devil is of course in the details, so please don't think that's all one ever needs to know. It's up to courts to decide which parts of the EULA is binding and which is not.

Of course the whole discussion is pointless because no one can prevent X1 from doing what they do, but the topic is still very interesting.

[denis_469]

I'm from Russia and I wish to share the understanding of a situation. UBI should cancel the right of a private property if wishes to insist on the rights. According to it the property right passes to the purchaser of the goods after full payment of its cost and the new owner has the right to do all with the property that will wish.
As to not paid information wishing to sell it it is obliged to coordinate in writing the actions with its developer. Without the written sanction use of such information is forbidden.
As to courts itself collided - everyone solve money. In process of increase Russian mods it can turn out so, that any developer a fashion will simply send the killer to clean those who steals its fashions. If directors UBI and X1 wish it let wait.

With the best regards.

[Tuddley3]

Oh, are you talking about the End User Agreement. I've never read it, but that would make sense. This thread is sure a roller coaster ride.

[denis_469]

It's not thread, but i'm from Russia and know that deals sich deals. It's only information about situation. I think that would good if dev. team SW know about. I simply wish to inform on customs in Russia. That were more cautious.

[Gizzmoe]

I want to tell you all I logged on at Gameshadow and see he did remove Sea Wolves for the time being.

I just checked and they still have the links to the German and UK download version of SW. They also show a SW ad.

[P_Funk]

Oh, are you talking about the End User Agreement. I've never read it, but that would make sense. This thread is sure a roller coaster ride. The End User Agreement... lawers words that amount to shackles. I know many people love to talk about how they like intellectual property but its a crazy idea. Owning an idea... The idea that someone can own the right to use an idea and prevent others from using that idea. Its anti-societal. For millennia we have passed our stories down to our children and our children retell them but their own way. Beowulf is ripped off from Gilgamesh, Dante borrowed ideas from the past for creating his Divine Comedy. But today we see Dan Brown sued because he takes a theory of Christ's marriage to Mary Magdalen and turns it into a work of fiction.

Its insane. How can we have a culture that grows if we retard the process of creativity by forcing everyone to start from scratch themselves? Another reason I'm a pinko and think that the market economy is bollocks.

EDIT. Sorry terribly off topic and likely inflammatory. You can all ignore it if you like. I don't want to derail the convo. Jeeze makes me sound like an extremist.

[Gizzmoe]

I just checked and they still have the links to the German and UK download version of SW. They also show a SW ad.
The links go to www.arktus.com (http://www.arktus.com), a digital software download shop. The owner of that site is Steffen Trombke, Managing Director of X1 Software.

[denis_469]

It's in teme, so here the rights are discussed by someone to sell not belonging it by any right and without any sanctions.

[Tuddley3]

Did you click on My Games where the Patch download is Gizzmoe ? There used to be a direct Download there, now it's gone.

[Gizzmoe]

Did you click on My Games where the Patch download is Gizzmoe?

No. It´s listed in "GamePedia" and I´d searched in the "Mods" section for it. The SW ad was displayed in the "Add New Game" options dialog, when you click it it redirects to http://www.arktus.com/.

[Roger]

http://www.softwareexpress.se/Shop/Image/Article/23745.jpg

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=322866#post322866

[Onkel Neal]

Closed per Tuddley