french and terroism

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by MSgalileo

Gang in french city exist from more than 30 years (thanks to the US TV show for that).

Then surely, all you now need to do is broadcast reruns of SWAT to resolve the problems.

At this time there is no connection between this incident and AQ or any islamic organisation.

Yet even Le Monde is not towing the state party line any more, in articles like this:

Violences et banlieues : le cri d'alarme du préfet du "9-3" (Violence and suburbs: the cry of alarm from the "9-3" prefect)

C'est bon, non?

[scandium]

Originally Posted by MSgalileo

Give me an exmaple of UN sanction that force a country to stop anything, you try with North Korea, Irak and other and what was the result?.
Governement dindn't care about UN sanction and this is the poeple of those country who suffer and then support their gvt by the way (this is just improve the Nationalism).
So before voting an another useless UN sanction we can try to speak then if ther is not response, time to make a UN vote and get an another useless text.

Can't help but agree with you completely on this, as well as what you said above about terrorism not having been invented on 9/11 as so many seem to think and act as though it was, and also agree that the only effective way to fight terrorism is with police, intel, and special forces - and not regular armies, airforce, and cruise missles. And even then, with the right tools (police, intel, etc) we are still only fighting the symptoms but we are at least doing that much effectively and not making it any worse.

That is what is so wrong with both the US and Israeli approach to terrorism, though the Israelis at least have more experience with it, their methods have accomplished zero in the last 70 years while in the meantime, by their own admission, in having spent so many years doing little else besides harrassing old women at check points and bulldozing homes, their combat readiness and effectiveness had become so diminished that even they admit that their "elite" military units got their asses handed to them by the overwhelmingly numerically and technologically inferior Hezbollah "army" as soon as the ground war began (and this despite several weeks of softening them up with an intensive, prolonged, and indiscrimate bombing campaign).

The US government has simply imported the proven failure of the Israeli approach to anti-terrorism, but with none of their experience or willingness to go the distance regardless of whether or not it works (since for Israel it is life or death, right or wrong, while for the US the nation building in Iraq and Afghanistan were purely optional overseas adventures that the American people seems to be losing their taste for) and in Iraq and Afghanistan, both disasters, we are seeing the consequences while year after year the statistics on terrorist attacks continue to rise worldwide.

And, as you point out, all that tough talk, bullying, and sanctions accomplish is to instill strenghthened support for the very government one seeks to isolate/overthrow, and promote nationalism which is an especially dangerous thing in places like Iran where a rise in anti-Americanism and nationalism will have a direct effect on the people's willingness to support and undertake terrorist attacks against the West... we are merely engaging in a self-fulfilling prophecy now where we have become so afraid and belligerent toward this vast "them" that we only encourage the very acts we think are fighting. And again Iraq, where terrorism was virtually unknown before the US invaded it (after a decade of sanctions), has become the poster child that symbolizes exactly why the US approach is a failure and what the consequences are (increased instability, increased violence, increased terrorism, and an emergent unstable Islamic theocracy that will be a better breeding and training ground than Afghanistan ever was even before 9/11).

Anyway, end of rant for now.

[The Avon Lady]

That's funny!

Most of us Israelis here recognize that what hasn't worked with terrorists is appeasing them, promising them a state, trusting the papers they sign, etc.

Otherwise, lots of things have worked excellently with terrorism, especially when military action is employed and not in response to events but prior to them.

Once again, Scandium's got it backwards.

[Immacolata]

Again, the problem is we still haven't a proper definition of terrorists.
But let us assume the terrorists are the fundamentalist type, the ones who do it in the name of God. Agree AL, you cannot paper out of that one. But that isn't because they cannot be negotiated with. Their price is just too high.

If Israel wants the terrorists off its back, it needs to evacuate the land of Israel. So that is clearly not negotiable. And that is all the terrorists want. Nothing less will satisfy them. So the conflict is unsolveable by peaceful methods untill one party backs down from impossible demands. But who should that be? Who will blink first?

In my eyes the palestinian people has suffered many more years than needed, precisely because they keep claimining things that are now lost. Possession is 9/10ths of the law I hear quoted often. They do not want to face facts, it is a hollow pride.

[micky1up]

Originally Posted by MSgalileo

Gang in french city exist from more than 30 years (thanks to the US TV show for that). Sunday 5 of the aggressors were arrested after police raid (more than 200 policmens) on this city. They were well know from the police (DNA and fingerprint were found on the car of the injured policemen).
At this time there is no connection between this incident and AQ or any islamic organisation.

if this was the norm and expected why did mr chirac hold an emergency meeting over the threat aimed at france by AQ

[Yahoshua]

[Onkel Neal]

You know, that French surrender humor has been done to death... and it really dishonors the millions of French soldiers who died opposing the Kaiser and Hitler.

I'm sorry if I am coming across preachy, but we have French people in this forum and that probably isn't as funny to them, mate.

[scandium]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

That's funny!

Most of us Israelis here recognize that what hasn't worked with terrorists is appeasing them, promising them a state, trusting the papers they sign, etc.

Otherwise, lots of things have worked excellently with terrorism, especially when military action is employed and not in response to events but prior to them.

Once again, Scandium's got it backwards.

Really? Tell me then, how many countries have tiny Israel's per capita rate of domestic, done on Israeli soil, terrorist attacks? How many other countries bulldoze, per capita, the number of homes that Israel does? How many first world countries have the ~40% unemployment rate that is enjoyed by your segregated and disenfranchised Palestinian population? How many countries detain, without trial and per capita, the number of people that Israel does? How many 21st century countries are building the kind of midieval style walls that Israel is building? And how many 1st world countries practice the kind of pre-Mendalla Apartheid that is practiced in Israel? And how many 1st world countries routinely use their airforce to bomb targets within their own borders?

Yet you think your approach is working? Why then does your country resemble so much more of a police state than any other 1st world country in the World? And before you simply blame the Muslim Palestinians, recall that other countries (such as France, the US, possibly Germany, and many others) have far more Muslims living within their borders yet use none of your methods and have none of your problems. So clearly what have you've been doing for the last 70 years hasn't worked, and the attempts at a paper Palestinian state that has never gone anywhere is a red herring. Though quite possibly if you gave them a real state, one with real sovereignty, then maybe you wouldn't need to build walls.

The history of Europe is one that is far bloodier than that of Israel's, yet you don't see Germany expelling French citizens, or Spain bombing Portugal. Not that the rest of us have entirely clean hands at home or abroad, but your country seems unique in its ability to spend decades fighting the same battle with the same tactics with absolutely no insight into the fact that they've accomplished little beyond exporting your domestiv conflict to the rest of the globe. Of course you don't see this and are the forum cheerleader for blaming all the worlds ills on the mostly powerless and many places all but enslaved Muslims; personally I'm more inclined to lay the blame at the only 1st world country that makes ethnicity/religion a prerequisite for citizenship (among other benefits) and in that regard places itself into the same category as Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia, enjoys a foreign aid budget that dwarfs that of any other country and which it has no longer any need for and devotes almost exclusively to weapons that it uses to destroy defenseless neighbours like Lebanon, which is ironically one of the most progressive countries in the region and a natural trading partner and ally if only your government, having only a hammer, didn't see every problem as though it were a nail. But you do. And then you expect the rest of us to clean up your mess and continue to make the annual welfare payments as well (while bailing you out of the UN court everytime you smash something else).

I think we'd see a lot more peace and a lot less terrorism if simply we started treating Israel more like an adult and less like a spoiled teenager.

[Iceman]

Originally Posted by scandium

Though quite possibly if you gave them a real state, one with real sovereignty, then maybe you wouldn't need to build walls.

You really believe this? You never cease to amaze me.You are like talking to a wall...a wall with no eyes or ears...no eyes to see the hate from the muslim world nor ears to hear the CHANTS of DEATH TO AMERICA, DEATH TO ISRAEL......I know it does not bother you because it has not affected you yet in whatever tiny crack of Canada you live in but perhaps when some 2-3000 people are killed in one swoop in your country you may change your perceptions but I don't think it will...You are just smoking the pipe and dreaming of a peaceful world....ahh the dream...can't we all just get along.Sniff sNiff I think I'm gonna cry.

What is reality?....Reality is stravation and death and war....wake up and smell the dream Scand.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by scandium

Really? Tell me then, how many countries have tiny Israel's per capita rate of domestic, done on Israeli soil, terrorist attacks?

I don't know and I don't care.

What I do know is that successful terrorist attacks shot through the roof whenever politicos told the military to withdraw/retreat/relax/show leniency, etc. There's a simple pattern here.

We will continue to have such high rates of terrorism as long as the Arabs and Muslims have "wipe Israel off the face of the earth" on their checklist. Other than packing our bags and leaving or committing mass national suicide, however, a tough and vicious military approach, with the right tactics, has been the best solution against these barbarians. Of course, the disdain and morally bankrupt hypocrisy we receive from westerners like yourself are one of the biggest contributors to the morale and justification for terrorists to keep on killing and maiming us and eventually you, too, as you will unfortunately find out if the world keeps turning the way it has for the last 3 decades.

How many other countries bulldoze, per capita, the number of homes that Israel does?

Another often helpful tactic. Now think about how much more terrorism there would have been had Israel said to terrorists, their families and their accomplices that no matter how much terror you throw at us Israelis, we will just turn the other cheek like the good Christians the world wants us to be, though no one else would ever be stupid enough to practice this thenmselves.

How many first world countries have the ~40% unemployment rate that is enjoyed by your segregated and disenfranchised Palestinian population?

Now you should be telling the Arabs that terrorism doesn't pay. But you don't. It's all Israel's fault, ain't it? Boo hoo!

How many countries detain, without trial and per capita, the number of people that Israel does?

Well, how many countries are in Israel's situation and if they were I'd say this would have to be much of a necessity under wartime-like circumstances. Once again, boo hoo. Cry the poor terrorists!

How many 21st century countries are building the kind of midieval style walls that Israel is building?

I don't know but for a mideival structure, it's working pretty well. Again, another working solution, though I don't believe it's positioned in the right place.

And how many 1st world countries practice the kind of pre-Mendalla Apartheid that is practiced in Israel?

We have no separate buses, hospitals, doctors, restaurants, benches, etc., for Israel's Arab citizens. Arabs are fully represented by their duly elected parliamentary members in Israel's Knesset. But you wouldn't know that, would you. In fact, I would question whether you know what apartheid was altogether at this point.

And how many 1st world countries routinely use their airforce to bomb targets within their own borders?

Make up you mind. Gaza, Judea and Samaria are within our borders? Thank you. I'll call up Mr. Olmert and update him.

Yet you think your approach is working? Why then does your country resemble so much more of a police state than any other 1st world country in the World?

Because we're in a pepetual war. But considering the circumstances, my kids can go out on the streets and play, safer than in most N. American cities, we can shop and travel and what not quite safely for the most part today. It wasn't like that a decade and less ago, when we tried your stupid methods of appeasement, compromise and unilateral concessions, which only made things worse.

And that's exactly the point I was arguing with about you but you didn't catch. It's sort of reminds me of the Orwell quote in your sig. :hmm:

And before you simply blame the Muslim Palestinians,

I'm an equal opportunity employer. I blame Christian and Marxist Pals no less.

recall that other countries (such as France, the US, possibly Germany, and many others) have far more Muslims living within their borders yet use none of your methods and have none of your problems.

Just wait and see. Time will tell. Tell me, are you familiar with Islam's laws regarding land previously claimed as Muslim land? We are not in Canada, Toto.

So clearly what have you've been doing for the last 70 years hasn't worked, and the attempts at a paper Palestinian state that has never gone anywhere is a red herring. Though quite possibly if you gave them a real state, one with real sovereignty, then maybe you wouldn't need to build walls.

Of course. Sure. They've proved how stable and peace loving they are. All those explicite proclamations, to this very day, in the PLOs, Hamas' and Hizballah's charters about Israel's destruction, can simply be ignored. Like Neville Chamberlain, you wish to wave another piece of paper or two in our direction and tell us that everything's going to be alright.

But there already is and has been a Palestinian state for over 70 years. Its name is Jordan. The majority of its population is and always was "Palestinian." Yes, those quotes are intential. You figure it out.

The history of Europe is one that is far bloodier than that of Israel's, yet you don't see Germany expelling French citizens,

Germany lost. Both sides also ceased hostilities. That's because the wars were decisively won, something the world doesn't permit Israel to do, nor does Israel itself understand anymore that it has to.
[/quote]or Spain bombing Portugal. Not that the rest of us have entirely clean hands at home or abroad, but your country seems unique in its ability to spend decades fighting the same battle with the same tactics with absolutely no insight into the fact that they've accomplished little beyond exporting your domestiv conflict to the rest of the globe.[/quote]
On the contrary. It's the hypocritical world, that gives the terrorists their ongoing support, money and motivation that keeps them going.

Had the world stood shoulder to shoulder decades ago and said we don't recognize the idea of a state run by people who blow up airplanes, buses, schools, houses and restaurants full of people, who slaughter unarmed Olympic participants, who blow up embassies, who continue to proclaim to this very day in all of their national charters that Israel must be destroyed - well, sir, you see, its thugs like you that support the beasts who are the most to blame. Shame on the likes of you.

Of course you don't see this and are the forum cheerleader for blaming all the worlds ills on the mostly powerless and many places all but enslaved Muslims;

Boo hoo. Muslims peacful people. Boo hoo.

[Skybird]

Hopeless with him, AL.

sunday night we had a TV late news show, a report about the upcoming conferenc between the government and muslim organizations in germany. It is planned to push for Islamic education and Muslim religion lessons in public schools. This already is practiced in some public schools in two federal states in the south-west. They reported from a first class that had the very first of such lesson for the children, and little children were singing "Islam bedeutet Frieden, Islam bedeutet Frieden" (Islam means peace). A wrong translation, or an intentional lie? Islam means subjugation, whereas the word salaam means peace. However, if something starts with such naive and infantile distortions already at the very beginning, I know to whose costs this all will go. One may argue what to teach little children instead, if the history of Islam is such a violant one. Starting with the massacre on the market place in Medina, maybe? But this only illustrates the very problem: Islam is nothing that should be tought at all. Especially not with public money at public schools in non-Islamic countries. Noone would have the idea to teach nazism at public schools, hoping to prevent future Neo-Nazis to turn into violant supporters of Neonazis, and singing "Hitler is a good, loving uncle" (sorry Neal) or "Fascism means tolerance and freedom". It's an idiotic attempt. The ideology of Nazism simply does not include the concept of tolerance and freedom. And the ideology of Islam does not include the idea of tolerant coexistence with non-Islamic cultures. Like the Nazis have separated all man into Herrenrasse and Untermenschen, Islam has separated all mankind into Muhammedan masters and infidel slaves (consequently Islamic nations developed the greatest slave-holding culture there ever was, and slave trading is still existent in africa, until today). the demand for slaves sometimes was so great that muslim factions attacked and enslaved other muslim factions, in africa for the main, accusing them of not being true muhammedans. singing "Islam means peace" does not change all that a bit. It only helps to hide the problem, and deceive the infidels. when these little kids have grown up, they still will be convinced, as they have learned that helping to spread Islam is just for the best of mankind and is helping peace. A peace defined as thge unquestioned rulership of Islam eveywhere.

It's like putting a rope around our neck, assuming it is a decorative scarf.

[SkvyWvr]

Originally Posted by scandium

Really? Tell me then, how many countries have tiny Israel's per capita rate of domestic, done on Israeli soil, terrorist attacks? How many other countries bulldoze, per capita, the number of homes that Israel does? How many first world countries have the ~40% unemployment rate that is enjoyed by your segregated and disenfranchised Palestinian population? How many countries detain, without trial and per capita, the number of people that Israel does? How many 21st century countries are building the kind of midieval style walls that Israel is building? And how many 1st world countries practice the kind of pre-Mendalla Apartheid that is practiced in Israel? And how many 1st world countries routinely use their airforce to bomb targets within their own borders?

Yet you think your approach is working? Why then does your country resemble so much more of a police state than any other 1st world country in the World? And before you simply blame the Muslim Palestinians, recall that other countries (such as France, the US, possibly Germany, and many others) have far more Muslims living within their borders yet use none of your methods and have none of your problems. So clearly what have you've been doing for the last 70 years hasn't worked, and the attempts at a paper Palestinian state that has never gone anywhere is a red herring. Though quite possibly if you gave them a real state, one with real sovereignty, then maybe you wouldn't need to build walls.

The history of Europe is one that is far bloodier than that of Israel's, yet you don't see Germany expelling French citizens, or Spain bombing Portugal. Not that the rest of us have entirely clean hands at home or abroad, but your country seems unique in its ability to spend decades fighting the same battle with the same tactics with absolutely no insight into the fact that they've accomplished little beyond exporting your domestiv conflict to the rest of the globe. Of course you don't see this and are the forum cheerleader for blaming all the worlds ills on the mostly powerless and many places all but enslaved Muslims; personally I'm more inclined to lay the blame at the only 1st world country that makes ethnicity/religion a prerequisite for citizenship (among other benefits) and in that regard places itself into the same category as Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia, enjoys a foreign aid budget that dwarfs that of any other country and which it has no longer any need for and devotes almost exclusively to weapons that it uses to destroy defenseless neighbours like Lebanon, which is ironically one of the most progressive countries in the region and a natural trading partner and ally if only your government, having only a hammer, didn't see every problem as though it were a nail. But you do. And then you expect the rest of us to clean up your mess and continue to make the annual welfare payments as well (while bailing you out of the UN court everytime you smash something else).

I think we'd see a lot more peace and a lot less terrorism if simply we started treating Israel more like an adult and less like a spoiled teenager.

He's right, by god roll over and play dead.

[SkvyWvr]

Originally Posted by Iceman

You really believe this? You never cease to amaze me.You are like talking to a wall...a wall with no eyes or ears...no eyes to see the hate from the muslim world nor ears to hear the CHANTS of DEATH TO AMERICA, DEATH TO ISRAEL......I know it does not bother you because it has not affected you yet in whatever tiny crack of Canada you live in but perhaps when some 2-3000 people are killed in one swoop in your country you may change your perceptions but I don't think it will...You are just smoking the pipe and dreaming of a peaceful world....ahh the dream...can't we all just get along.Sniff sNiff I think I'm gonna cry.

What is reality?....Reality is stravation and death and war....wake up and smell the dream Scand.

Couldn't agree more, Iceman but you cry, I'll just puck over his post.

[UglyMowgli]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

You know, that French surrender humor has been done to death... and it really dishonors the millions of French soldiers who died opposing the Kaiser and Hitler.

I'm sorry if I am coming across preachy, but we have French people in this forum and that probably isn't as funny to them, mate.

You know since 2003 we heard so many 'white flag' jokes that we didn't care anymore
For your information the only surrender story told by my father (who fight during the WW2) was about a GI's in southern of France in august 1944, they were 6+my ftaher and they surrender to 2 germans! .My father was taken POW with this GI's but he escape (alone) 8 days after, cross the southern part of Germany, Austria then the Alps and end the war with the italian resistance in the north of Italy.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by MSgalileo

You know since 2003 we heard so many 'white flag' jokes that we didn't care anymore

I just want to know what detergent you're all using in France to get those flags so white! I've tried scrubbing them out and soaking them out but I still come up with ring around the collar! :p

For your information the only surrender story told by my father (who fight during the WW2) was about a GI's in southern of France in august 1944, they were 6+my ftaher and they surrender to 2 germans! .My father was taken POW with this GI's but he escape (alone) 8 days after, cross the southern part of Germany, Austria then the Alps and end the war with the italian resistance in the north of Italy.

Here's another surrender story which I have no doubt your father also must have told you.