Unnarmed 17 year old shot dead "in self defence" - Page 4

Sailor Steve · 03-20-12, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealhead

I though my point was more clear Steve.I am saying the requirements to be allowed to obtain a concealed carry permit should be much stricter.A person should no criminal record and they really should be evaluated for any possible physiological issues and there should be a much more extensive course training a person what they can and can not do legally as is most states it takes an afternoon.

But you didn't say that. You went on a diatribe against the people who say this proves we need more guns, when no one here tried to say that.

As for making it harder to get a permit, would that affect this case? Did this guy have a criminal record? Would a psychological evaluation have turned up anything? I don't know. Maybe he went through all that, and managed to fool the system. It's obvious now that he has serious problems, but was it obvious the day he got the permit?

Stealhead · 03-21-12, 12:10 AM

Well it is obvious at least that he had been arrested for obstruction of justice and for battery on a police officer and that did not stop him from losing or not gaining the permit(you have to be 21 in FL to own a handgun and also to obtain a permit to carry)Not clear if he was even fully charged or only arrested and later dropped of course Le can see your entire record of dealings with the police including every time you where arrested and for what reason and if you got convicted or not they like to know who they are dealing and their history.

I was never targeting anyone on this site for claiming that more guns would and less restrictions make things safer I have heard thus numerous times in public form co-workers and friends in various settings and places.It seems to be one of the gun opinions floating out there I am rather surprised no one else has heard it before.Or perhaps some people are little quick to assume something is targeted at them.I am a man that likes to be specific therefore if I post something that does not mention a subsim member by name or quote something they said making a counterpoint then you can safely assume that is in reference to an opinion heard by myself that it did not come directly from a subsim member but from another source.

I have to drop out of this topic for now it is late and I have a long day tomorrow so at least for me it have to continue later.

gimpy117 · 03-21-12, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

Really? How do you calculate those who are dissuaded from committing a crime because their potential victim may be armed?

I'd say its really more like if victims are armed they're not as easily killed by some nut who is going to be able to get a gun regardless of whatever law you enact.

I haven't seen anyone argue for more guns and less regulation here in this thread so I have to wonder who you are talking about.

I just don't agree with the idea, it's a nice thought but, people who go on shooting sprees pretty much don't care and it's a moot point...you can't walk into a shopping mall and have made sure EVERYONE is unarmed. Premeditated murder as well is mostly the same idea, If someone wanted to kill me, they would do it when im not awake or otherwise armed...so either you have to post watch 24/7 or have a loaded gun under your pillow, or this whole self defense idea is pretty wishy washy. I remember a cop who was killed in my home town by his wife in his sleep. he's armed almost 24/7 and his wife still offed him...with his own gun. (actually my mom was on that jury for his trial)

and I keep waiting for that magical Mythical news story where the one superman packing heat saves the day. But I haven't seen one, not to say it's never happened, but as much as it touted that having a gun with you at all times will save you from everything up to and maybe including a nuclear apocalypse just seems not to be all that true or even common.

but i really think though this whole "stand your ground law" is complete folly it's pointless. it's like that old episode of south park where i think it was Stan's uncle are taking the boys hunting and they shoot all these endangered animals legally simply by yelling "oh my god it's coming right at us" before hand. It's just like that in Florida it seems, only with people.

Aramike · 03-21-12, 12:15 AM

Here's a great, fairly recent, local story of a man who may have saved the lives of others put at risk by criminals who wouldn't give a damn if guns were illegal:

http://www.wisn.com/news/30374159/detail.html

gimpy117 · 03-21-12, 12:42 AM

well thats good.

but that's still

armed civilians: 1 Crazed gunmen: A bunch

oh by the way, happy birthday man or yesterday that is

Aramike · 03-21-12, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gimpy117

well thats good.

but that's still

armed civilians: 1 Crazed gunmen: A bunch

oh by the way, happy birthday man or yesterday that is

Actually, a quick Google search will reveal many, many stories of armed civilians defending themselves and others.

But you're right, the crazed gunman is the most likely to win. That being said, if I'm ever in a situation where there's a crazed gunman after me, I'd rather be armed and have a chance than merely surrender my life to such a maniac.

Thanks for the birthday wishes nonetheless!

Osmium Steele · 03-21-12, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gimpy117

but i really think though this whole "stand your ground law" is complete folly it's pointless. it's like that old episode of south park...

It is nothing like that at all.

In Fla law, previous to SYG if you were accosted, threatened, etc. and you "could" run away you were obliged to do so. You did not have the right to stand your ground.

Heaven help you if you actually struck first and disarmed, or otherwise incapacitated your assailant, because Florida law did not have your back. You just committed a felony and could be sued by your attacker for costs and damages. It happened numerous times.

Stand Your Ground changed that.

yubba · 03-21-12, 08:07 AM

I was listening to the Bill Mic live radio show here on the coast of florida it sounds like there is wittnesses seeing Zimmerman being beaten by the kid or fighting with, before the shot was fired. So I think we all better get our facts straight before we hang someone, so I guess the media will fan the flames of racism, some other media outlets will have the story about the witnesses seeing the fight. I haven't the time too look for this right now just reporting what I heard

mookiemookie · 03-21-12, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yubba

I was listening to the Bill Mic live radio show here on the coast of florida it sounds like there is wittnesses seeing Zimmerman being beaten by the kid or fighting with, before the shot was fired. So I think we all better get our facts straight before we hang someone, so I guess the media will fan the flames of racism, some other media outlets will have the story about the witnesses seeing the fight. I haven't the time too look for this right now just reporting what I heard

And here it comes. Latch on to any story, however implausible, that makes the good ol' God fearin' 'Merican out to be the hero for holding the savage hordes of 17 year olds armed with Skittles and Iced Tea at bay by shooting them dead for walking down the street.

Sometimes people make me sick.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aramike

The topic slightly aside, I've never completely understood why gun crime has always inevitably led to a gun control discussion. If someone owns a gun legally or not, USING it illegally is still ILLEGAL. Ergo, what makes anyone think that those who would break laws regarding gun usage would simply follow laws regarding gun possession?

People should have the right to choose to be able to defend themselves with a firearm. I believe that 100%. However, they should also be held accountable when they engage in violence against others that is not in defense. Whether or not they are allowed to LEGALLY possess the capability shouldn't be the issue, because hey - if they are willing to commit murder, why wouldn't they be willing to illegally own a gun?

It's an age-old argument, but it's completely true - banning firearms only disarms law-abiding citizens. The individual in question may turn out to not be such a citizen.

Good point. This idiot should never have been armed with a firearm if this is how he's going to use it. But I can't make that logical leap to banning all guns or enacting stricter gun control standards because one idiot used one wrong.

andritsos · 03-21-12, 08:44 AM

did that zimmermann identify himself? or it isnt known?

August · 03-21-12, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

And here it comes. Latch on to any story, however implausible, that makes the good ol' God fearin' 'Merican out to be the hero for holding the savage hordes of 17 year olds armed with Skittles and Iced Tea at bay by shooting them dead for walking down the street.

Sometimes people make me sick.

But aren't you latching onto a story yourself?

I mean I share your doubts that it went down like this but what's so implausible about it? A 17 year old athlete is perfectly capable of beating up an out of shape 28 year old and it certainly wouldn't be the first time a teenager got confrontational with his elders.

I'd think it'd be wise not prejudge this incident either way until we get all the facts.

Ducimus · 03-21-12, 10:34 AM

I don't think Gun control is the problem. No i think the problem is shady people manipulating Flordia's "stand your ground" laws. Frankly i didn't even know such a law was passed or even existed, and upon reading about it, it became immediatly obvious to me how some people will try to manipulate it. This "stand your ground" law, is completely different from the Castle Doctrine.

mookiemookie · 03-21-12, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

But aren't you latching onto a story yourself?

The most plausible one backed by the most evidence, yes.

Quote:

I mean I share your doubts that it went down like this but what's so implausible about it? A 17 year old athlete is perfectly capable of beating up an out of shape 28 year old and it certainly wouldn't be the first time a teenager got confrontational with his elders.

Well, the most recent thing is that his phone call to his girlfriend came out and he was saying the guy was following him. If that were the case, I'd probably get confrontational with the guy too.

Quote:

I'd think it'd be wise not prejudge this incident either way until we get all the facts.

You're right, but I honestly can't see any way that any new fact would make this guy justified in shooting the kid given what we know.

August · 03-21-12, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

You're right, but I honestly can't see any way that any new fact would make this guy justified in shooting the kid given what we know.

I sort of agree but where I see the need for caution is that kind of reasoning has put more than one innocent man into the electric chair. He hasn't even been arrested yet and there are folks here who have him already convicted and are using him as an example of the need to further restrict peoples constitutional freedoms.

yubba · 03-21-12, 11:27 AM

why isn't this picture in the newspaper much ?????? it has been way in the 80's here who needs to be wearing a hooded sweat shirt, all our little gansters here wears this, I rememeber being in the gunshop when some kid came in wearing a hoody like that, the owner came unglued. pic was taken march 14 2012.

03-21-12, 12:42 AM	#50
gimpy117 Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Kalamazoo, MI Posts: 3,243 Downloads: 108 Uploads: 0	well thats good. but that's still armed civilians: 1 Crazed gunmen: A bunch oh by the way, happy birthday man or yesterday that is __________________ Member of the Subsim Zombie Army

03-21-12, 12:10 AM	#47
Stealhead Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 5,421 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	Well it is obvious at least that he had been arrested for obstruction of justice and for battery on a police officer and that did not stop him from losing or not gaining the permit(you have to be 21 in FL to own a handgun and also to obtain a permit to carry)Not clear if he was even fully charged or only arrested and later dropped of course Le can see your entire record of dealings with the police including every time you where arrested and for what reason and if you got convicted or not they like to know who they are dealing and their history. I was never targeting anyone on this site for claiming that more guns would and less restrictions make things safer I have heard thus numerous times in public form co-workers and friends in various settings and places.It seems to be one of the gun opinions floating out there I am rather surprised no one else has heard it before.Or perhaps some people are little quick to assume something is targeted at them.I am a man that likes to be specific therefore if I post something that does not mention a subsim member by name or quote something they said making a counterpoint then you can safely assume that is in reference to an opinion heard by myself that it did not come directly from a subsim member but from another source. I have to drop out of this topic for now it is late and I have a long day tomorrow so at least for me it have to continue later.

03-21-12, 12:15 AM	#49
Aramike Ocean Warrior Best of SUBSIM Chairman Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 3,207 Downloads: 59 Uploads: 0	Here's a great, fairly recent, local story of a man who may have saved the lives of others put at risk by criminals who wouldn't give a damn if guns were illegal: http://www.wisn.com/news/30374159/detail.html

03-21-12, 08:07 AM	#53
yubba Admiral Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: in a neighborhood near you Posts: 2,478 Downloads: 293 Uploads: 2	I was listening to the Bill Mic live radio show here on the coast of florida it sounds like there is wittnesses seeing Zimmerman being beaten by the kid or fighting with, before the shot was fired. So I think we all better get our facts straight before we hang someone, so I guess the media will fan the flames of racism, some other media outlets will have the story about the witnesses seeing the fight. I haven't the time too look for this right now just reporting what I heard

03-21-12, 08:44 AM	#55
andritsos Gunner Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 92 Downloads: 71 Uploads: 0	did that zimmermann identify himself? or it isnt known?

03-21-12, 10:34 AM	#57
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	I don't think Gun control is the problem. No i think the problem is shady people manipulating Flordia's "stand your ground" laws. Frankly i didn't even know such a law was passed or even existed, and upon reading about it, it became immediatly obvious to me how some people will try to manipulate it. This "stand your ground" law, is completely different from the Castle Doctrine.

03-21-12, 11:27 AM	#60
yubba Admiral Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: in a neighborhood near you Posts: 2,478 Downloads: 293 Uploads: 2	why isn't this picture in the newspaper much ?????? it has been way in the 80's here who needs to be wearing a hooded sweat shirt, all our little gansters here wears this, I rememeber being in the gunshop when some kid came in wearing a hoody like that, the owner came unglued. pic was taken march 14 2012.