LuftWolf and Amizaur's Weapons and Sensors Realism Mod

[Gorshkov]

OK, I am nor an expert in submarine warfare neither DW/LWAMI beta-tester. That is why I don't know how torpedo versus decoys issue differs in reality, stock DW and LWAMI mod. Besides I don't have enough time to check it all myself. I simply discovered some strange to me in-game behaviors and reported them here looking for explanations. If you state it is not a LWAMI mod error and thus you can't improve it, this statement ends discussion.

[Gorshkov]

Yes! My ADCAP was approaching Foxtrot at 0.25 nm distance. Sub deployed active decoy and ADCAP immediately resteered toward decoy...:rotfl:

According to various sources about ADCAP's capabilities:

- Janes: Common Broadband Advanced Sonar System (CBASS) program, which will develop a fully digital wideband sonar capability to enable the torpedo to operate effectively both in shallow water (<180 m) to counter diesel electric submarines operating in the littoral and deep water environments. For this the torpedo will also feature frequency agility and optimal frequency selection. This capability will allow the Mk 48 ADCAP to identify torpedo countermeasures and discriminate them from the target. Full rate production of this upgrade is scheduled to begin in FY04.

- Wikipedia: Unconfirmed reports indicate that the torpedoes' sensors can monitor surrounding electrical and magnetic fields used to sense the metallic mass of the ship's hull and detonate at the proper stand-off distance.

BYE, BYE CRAPAMI!!!

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by Gorshkov[I

[/i]

- Wikipedia: Unconfirmed reports indicate that the torpedoes' sensors can monitor surrounding electrical and magnetic fields used to sense the metallic mass of the ship's hull and detonate at the proper stand-off distance.

...lending some (granted, weak) support to the theory LW, myself, and others have shared that torps would not detonate on expendable decoys--a fix that has been part of LW/Ami since the beginning.

I think we've beaten the other subject to death...

Edit: but why not...
In theory, you could use the LW/Ami 4 controls to slow down the torp and switch it to passive homing, allowing you to discriminate between an active decoy and a loud, running submarine. Without being able to change the interface, this is a really good approximation of what Jane's is describing.

It's worth mentioning here that an older version of LW/Ami allowed torps to provide sonar information to ownship, similar to a UUV. This allowed a player to discriminate between the target and decoys with 100% effectiveness. It was nearly universally rejected by the community. Speaking for myself, I found it to be too abstracted to be realistic and that rendered an important skillset irrelevant in the sim.

Was "crapami" supposed to be a play on LW/Ami? If it was, I think it's really immature to resort to name calling in any case, and it's especially worse that you've done it here, considering that LW/Ami addresses both of these issues and that stock only addresses one (and only since 1.04, while LW/Ami fixed it while the current version was 1.01).

[Gorshkov]

I can't understand whether you are moddling this game to be on a par with reality or to have more childish fun because for sure not to achieve both??? :hmm:

Tertium non datur!

[To be]

LWAMI makes DW better. It does not make it perfect. The next version will allow for better torpedo logic, however you shouldn't complain to a modder about how the sim runs. LWAMI is the best and only realism mod, if you want you can create your own mod. It is easy to mod the database, harder for the doctrines, but still doable.

[OneShot]

Originally Posted by Gorshkov

I can't understand whether you are moddling this game to be on a par with reality or to have more childish fun because for sure not to achieve both??? :hmm:

Tertium non datur!

Well, as ML already pointed out - namecalling is childish. Further on - there is nothing and nobody who would stop you from diggin into the DW database as well as all the relevant doctrines and make the changes you desire so much. Feel free to even share your work with others as Lw and Amizaur have done. Of course this would mean actual work on your end to understand how doctrines work, what you can change or not change with them and of course what the database is for.

I understand thats a lot of work and its of course a lot easier to call up some open sources who may or may not be right (or even in the ballpark) and request that everything be made to your liking ... STAT. And of course if those changes are not made or the whole thing doesnt work your way from the beginning then it must be "unreal" or just for "childish fun". Its always fascinating to see people who dig up some sources, preferably (in case of all the russian weapons and platforms) some shiny brochures or data directly from the manufacturer - intended to be published and given to the buyers of those weapons and actually take them for real and as undisposable facts. Now thats one hell of a scientific approach.

Bottom Line .. if you don't like what the LwAmi Mod is offering .. do your own mod. If you find questionable behaviour ... post it in an objective way and wait for the response. The possible responses include :

- Oops ... thats a bug, thanks for bringing that up it will be fixed
- Thats not a bug, its a feature (a Microsoft favourite)
- Its not a bug, it works as designed
- Thats how it should work and this was broken in the stock game
- ...

If the answer doesnt satisfy you, you still have options ...

- bring hard data to support your statements (Wikipedia for example isnt scientifically wise - hard data)
- make the changes yourself
- make do with what you have
- simply revert to Stock DW
- ...

Certainly not an option is being obnoxious and childish (name calling comes to mind). Btw. here is a link how you shouldn't participate in technical discussions (http://www.simhq.com/_air9/air_282a.html).

Cheers
OS

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by Gorshkov

I can't understand whether you are moddling this game to be on a par with reality or to have more childish fun because for sure not to achieve both??? :hmm:

Tertium non datur!

Childish fun? Did you even read what I wrote? Are you saying that because I considered realism and competition at the same time?

You could ask the same question of SCS in designing the sim, or the makers of any sim for that matter. No simulation given to the public will ever be on par with reality, because no one would want to use it. A discussion that considers only realism, to the exclusion of all other factors, is completely pointless.

As LW has said many times, the purpose of the mod is to address the aspects of the sim which most bother [the mod's] designers. This includes fixing a variety of features that are broken (e.g., SUBROC ranges, torpedo homing after losing track, layered air defenses, etc.) and adjusting the database to more accurately represent what is known about the specifications of weapons, sensors and platforms (e.g., replacing the 65cm wireguided torp with the 65-76, making the SS-N-27 ASM a 2-stage weapon, adjusting the sound-speed relationship of ships and subs).

SCS, on the other hand, has shown little interest in making realism adjustments.* With respect to potentially sensitive data, the reason is obvious--they don't want to get in trouble for divulging what might be considered classified information. But not all of it can by explained by "cover your ass." The case of decoys is very demonstrative of this. From the moment DW was released, an overwhelming majority of experienced customers complained about countermeasures to explode on decoys, while new players begged SCS to keep the unrealistic "feature." SCS sided with the new players, not because their position was for greater realism, but because SCS wanted the sim to be easier so that potential customers would be less intimidated. LW and Amizaur, on the other hand, wasted no time removing this "feature" from the sim. That speak volumes about which camp gives realism a higher priority.



*Although, to their credit, they did give us a sound-speed hotfix shortly after 1.01, and 1.04 corrected the lack of a torpedo range-speed relationship.


EDIT: I want to add to this that your assertion that simulation design involves a binary choice between realism and childish fun is flawed in two fundamental ways. First, realism and "childish fun" are not the only factors a producer or modder considers. There really is no limit to what other factors they might consider important, but they could include marketability, "adult" fun (emersion, historical role-playing, etc.), playability (e.g., easy to learn, efficient interface), and balance (which along with realism, is a personal favorite of mine).

Second, even if the two factors you mentioned--realism and "childish fun"--were the only two factors, the choice between them is not binary. No sim has ever been entirely realistic, nor has any sim been entirely childishly fun. All sims involve a combination of both. The challenge of the designer is to maximize both, and then to set priorites when the two come into conflict.

You may think that by quoting obscure contract legalese to a law student you'll sound clever, but what you have actually done yourself harm by demonstrating that you lack a fundamental understanding of the complexity of the issue, and your approach to forming your opinions is rigid and dogmatic rather than balanced and reasoned. Either that, or you incorrectly used the term. And on that question, my friend, there truly is no third option--it's either one or the other.

[LuftWolf]

Originally Posted by Gorshkov

Yes! My ADCAP was approaching Foxtrot at 0.25 nm distance. Sub deployed active decoy and ADCAP immediately resteered toward decoy...:rotfl:

According to various sources about ADCAP's capabilities:

- Janes: Common Broadband Advanced Sonar System (CBASS) program, which will develop a fully digital wideband sonar capability to enable the torpedo to operate effectively both in shallow water (<180 m) to counter diesel electric submarines operating in the littoral and deep water environments. For this the torpedo will also feature frequency agility and optimal frequency selection. This capability will allow the Mk 48 ADCAP to identify torpedo countermeasures and discriminate them from the target. Full rate production of this upgrade is scheduled to begin in FY04.

- Wikipedia: Unconfirmed reports indicate that the torpedoes' sensors can monitor surrounding electrical and magnetic fields used to sense the metallic mass of the ship's hull and detonate at the proper stand-off distance.

BYE, BYE CRAPAMI!!!

If you can figure out a way to prevent this behavior from happening, I'll very gratefully incorporate it into LWAMI.

Do I care whether any individual DW user uses LWAMI or not? Umm... no. LWAMI is so many light years ahead of stock DW that my only reaction to people who claim stock has this or that advantage is to smile.

And so to you I say ! (self-pwnage, the greatest gift of the internets)

Cheers,
David

[Molon Labe]

Self-pwnage.... Sigh.

You know why I hate you, LW? What takes me a full page to say, you say in one word! :rotfl:

[LuftWolf]

Originally Posted by Molon Labe

Self-pwnage.... Sigh.

You know why I hate you, LW? What takes me a full page to say, you say in one word! :rotfl:

It's a skill I learned on the streets of the Bronx and Harlem.

Cheers,
David

[Gorshkov]

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

Do I care whether any individual DW user uses LWAMI or not? Umm... no. LWAMI is so many light years ahead of stock DW that my only reaction to people who claim stock has this or that advantage is to smile.

Yes, "...many light years ahead...". Well stated!

Of course, our LuftWolf forgot to mention his LWAMI "realism" mod also includes some cheats, like Chinese "Yu-8" fictional torpedo or "quite real" SS-N-16 + APR-3 mix. :rotfl:

I think if DWEdit were able to change playable units' weapon loadouts, all LWAMI mod would be needless because everyone could make preferred changes himself!

[LuftWolf]

Originally Posted by Gorshkov

Yes, "...many light years ahead...". Well stated!

Of course, our LuftWolf forgot to mention his LWAMI "realism" mod also includes some cheats, like Chinese "Yu-8" fictional torpedo or "quite real" SS-N-16 + APR-3 mix. :rotfl:

I think if DWEdit were able to change playable units' weapon loadouts, all LWAMI mod would be needless because everyone could make preferred changes himself!

Well, when you are the only game in town, you don't have to be that good. :rotfl:

I can say it openly, I've earned the right to say this.

Cheers,
David

[OneShot]

Originally Posted by Gorshkov

Yes, "...many light years ahead...". Well stated!

Of course, our LuftWolf forgot to mention his LWAMI "realism" mod also includes some cheats, like Chinese "Yu-8" fictional torpedo or "quite real" SS-N-16 + APR-3 mix. :rotfl:

I think if DWEdit were able to change playable units' weapon loadouts, all LWAMI mod would be needless because everyone could make preferred changes himself!

As was stated before ... with the sole exception of directly changing the loadouts on the playables you can make all the changes you mentioned before yourself with the available tools. You can change the parameters on the loadouts so they behave differently ... wont have the right name but well ... you cant have everything.

So do would you mind and troll somewhere else? Nobody puts a gun to your head telling you to use the LwAmi mod. If its so bad, make yourself a new one and put it up for others to criticize ... oh wait, that would entail a lot of work and put you in the bright spot. Lot easier to stay on the sidelines and bitch.

Cheers
OS

[Driftwood]

Originally Posted by Gorshkov

BYE, BYE CRAPAMI!!!

Pearls before swine........some people just don't know when to quit.

[Gorshkov]

[quote=LuftWolf][quote=Gorshkov]

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

Well, when you are the only game in town, you don't have to be that good. :rotfl:
I can say it openly, I've earned the right to say this.

Would you be so courteous not to make some self-advertising twaddling about your "real" LWAMI mod?
Maybe many people can believe in your "reality mod" but in fact all LWAMI is as real as stock DW, buddy. :rotfl: