Here we go again-Ukraine once again pt2

[Dargo]

African Union leader finds Putin offer not enough

African Union President Azali Assoumani said at the conclusion of the Africa-Russia summit in St Petersburg that Putin's offer to provide grain to Africa selflessly was not enough. Comoros President Assoumani said there should also be a truce between Russia and Ukraine. According to him, Putin has shown a willingness to negotiate and "the other side must now be persuaded to engage in talks as well". Putin told his African guests that he is ready to negotiate in the conflict with Ukraine, which he said is set against the backdrop of years of threats to Russia's security by the US and by NATO. But Russia cannot force Ukraine to come to the table, the Russian leader said

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky has repeatedly said he does not want to negotiate a truce until all territories in Ukraine that have fallen into the hands of Russians or pro-Russian Ukrainians since 2014 are first recaptured. That includes the majority ethnically Russian Crimea and the eastern territories that have been in revolt against the central government in Kyiv since 2014. The Kremlin has stressed that a deal to end hostilities was already around in Istanbul last year, but Ukraine is said to have pulled out at the last minute, according to the Kremlin under pressure from Washington and London. Putin has visited nearly 20 presidents and heads of government and numerous other dignitaries from the continent that has 54 independent states. Putin has said to cancel debts and promised grain, fertiliser, visa-free travel for Africans and much more economic and military cooperation. He also "treated" his guests to statements about fighting "Western neocolonialism" and claims of reparations for African countries that have been colonies of a European country.

[mapuc]

The major key here is Crimea and secondly Luhansk and Donbas.

I say return Luhansk and Donbas to Ukraine and let Crimea have some kind of autonome independence from Ukraine-Which it had before 2014.

Markus

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Jeff-Groves

You sure he wasn't referring to the French Tanks?

Yes. Western tanks are quite fast in reverse. Russian tanks not, 5km/h or so. In forward, it depends, could be that later T-72 models were a bit faster than the Leopard-1, but Leo1 is faster in reverse in every case, much faster, also, it scores quite high in accelerating. The T-72 however was a big improvements in forward speed compared to older Russian tanks before. In reverese, its a crawler, AFAIK.



This reverse speed can be very decisive especially in defence, and tanks in turret down defence positions then rocketing forward to hull down to fire, and for reloading again reverse into turret down. And from Ukraine we see videos when T-72s are under fire from their frontal arc, they do not simply reverse, but they try to turn, exposing flanks, even rears. The risk they would take if simply reversing, is too big because they would take eons to reverse into safety, they turn so that they can race away with forward movement speed. Modern tanks like Leopard 2 and Abrams can go in reverse almost as fast as they move forward, and they accelerate faster, the Leo more so than the Abrams, but the Abrams reaches a slightly higher top speed. Thats what I red about the older versions at least.


Want to learn about tank speeds: Go into Steel Beasts Pro, all the tanks are there, line them upo in a scneario, and then go with them in reverse. You will be shocked how slow Russian tanks crawl in reverse, or the M-60 went in forward.

But I also remember that a couple of days ago an Ukrainian commander complained about the French AMX scout tanks, saying they had good sights and a reasonable good weapon, but that they hat several vehicles blowing up after beign hit and crews being a total loss due to these tanks being thin-skinned. Unsuited for nea rfrint aciton, he sdaid, and he voice dhis suspciion that some nations use Ukraine to cheaply dump their old equipment. The Leo-1 also is thin-skinned. Compare that to that video from one week ago or so that showed a Leopard-2A6 taking two or even three missile hits before having to be given up, it got very severly rocked up repeatedly , but the crew escaped, all four, unharmed. As the BBC headlined two days agao: Western armour gets stuck in those defence lines the Russians have established - but it gives its crews much better protection. Many of the taken out Bradleys also had their crews and teams aboard all saved and unharmed.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Catfish

How about some Nato ships escorting grain convoys to Turkey, preferrably escorted by turkish NATO ships.
Let's see if Putin attacks those –

I'd be all for that

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Jeff-Groves

You sure he wasn't referring to the French Tanks?

I think Sky failed to detect the humour Jeff

[Reece]

Originally Posted by Catfish

How about some Nato ships escorting grain convoys to Turkey, preferrably escorted by turkish NATO ships.
Let's see if Putin attacks those –

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

I'd be all for that

boy would Poo-tin kick up a stink!!

[Catfish]

Imagine being bombarded with this crap 24/7 on TV

Russian propagandist Skabeyeva has a discussion with another propagandist:

"We are ready to wage war with Turkey. Erdogan claims the Black Sea."
"Olya, we won't go to war with Turkey."
"What about Bulgaria, Romania? We'll just hit them, maybe?"
"Olya, we have to finish in Ukraine first, let's not be thoughtless and overconfident."

Propagandist Skabeyeva is very eager to start a war with one of the NATO countries.

https://twitter.com/Gerashchenko_en/...95286323228672

[tonschk]

Ukraine Loses Over 700 Soldiers In A Day As Russian Army Repels 30 Attacks In Donetsk

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

I think Sky failed to detect the humour Jeff

Äh - I must think about that for a while...

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

I think Sky failed to detect the humour Jeff [...]

ju no vee haff no umor
I guess it might have something to do with the white french national flag

[Catfish]

African leaders tell Putin: 'We have a right to call for peace'

- Africans call on Putin to return to Black Sea grain deal
- African leaders say war in Ukraine directly affects them
- Kremlin leader defends Russian stance, blames Ukraine and West
- Second day of summit in St Petersburg

"African leaders pressed Russian President Vladimir Putin on Friday to move ahead with their plan to end the Ukraine conflict and to renew a deal crucial to Africa on the safe wartime export of Ukrainian grain, which Moscow tore up last week."

While not directly critical of Russia, their interventions on the second day of a summit were more concerted and forceful than those that African countries have voiced until now.

https://www.reuters.com/world/putin-...al-2023-07-28/

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Catfish

ju no vee haff no umor
I guess it might have something to do with the white french national flag

If I had to hazard a guess I'd say your most probably correct

[Skybird]

African leaders also implied that Ukraine must accept land losses to negotiate "peace" of which Africans then want to benefit (regarding grain). They did not really care for Russia being the aggressor and implied that the victim "must be made" willing to negotiate with Russia (again implied: at Russia's terms).

That is no surprise, since only those African leaders went there who are more or less allied with Russia or friendly to it and its war of aggression, the other nations being more neutral only sent their second and third rank diplomatic teams. Significantly less leaders followed Putin's invitation than the last time. More than half of them from last time stayed at home.

Africans were better off to let Putin stand in the rain and make it clear they make HIM respon sible for the grain shortages.

It became clear what I said already last spring and summer, that this war also is about eliminating Ukraine as a grain dealer so that Russia's dominant role on the globe becomes even more dominant and allows it to dictate prices. This from beginning on also was a war about grain and controlling (=owning) the rich fertile farming ground of Ukraine, besides controlling (=owning) its heavy industry and mining business. And where they cannot have it, they make it uninhabitable and unusable for Ukrainians. "If we cannot have what we want, then nobody shall have it, even if it was somebody else's from beginning on."

Brutal bandit pack. Since centuries and centuries, always the same story with Russia. It will never be anything more than this: a brutal bandit and plunderer . All glory Putins calls out for, is just greed and brutality: no trace of glory or honour or morality.

[ET2SN]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Imagine being bombarded with this crap 24/7 on TV

Russian propagandist Skabeyeva has a discussion with another propagandist:

"We are ready to wage war with Turkey. Erdogan claims the Black Sea."
"Olya, we won't go to war with Turkey."
"What about Bulgaria, Romania? We'll just hit them, maybe?"
"Olya, we have to finish in Ukraine first, let's not be thoughtless and overconfident."

Propagandist Skabeyeva is very eager to start a war with one of the NATO countries.

https://twitter.com/Gerashchenko_en/...95286323228672

Right, and I still want to take Brooke Shields to the prom.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Skybird

It became clear what I said already last spring and summer, that this war also is about eliminating Ukraine as a grain dealer so that Russia's dominant role on the globe becomes even more dominant and allows it to dictate prices. This from beginning on also was a war about grain and controlling (=owning) the rich fertile farming ground of Ukraine, besides controlling (=owning) its heavy industry and mining business. And where they cannot have it, they make it uninhabitable and unusable for Ukrainians. "If we cannot have what we want, then nobody shall have it, even if it was somebody else's from beginning on."

Brutal bandit pack. Since centuries and centuries, always the same story with Russia. It will never be anything more than this: a brutal bandit and plunderer . All glory Putins calls out for, is just greed and brutality: no trace of glory or honour or morality.

Sums it up quite succinctly