How games used to teach the player

Dowly · 10-19-12, 10:25 AM

Sequelitis : Mega Man Classic vs. Mega Man X:

It's a comparisation video, but most of it is about how games used to teach the
player without silly hand holding.

Hottentot · 10-19-12, 11:07 AM

Press fire button to fire.

Nah, he does have a point. The old games were more unforgiving, but they also expected you to be able to breath without someone showing you first how to do it in a tutorial. Then again, some of them were just plain dumb in their expectations like the author of that video points out too.

Personally I'd say the direction is towards the better. Yes, we all know the horror stories of scripts ruining the games, the features being "dumbed down" and the games being made for simpletons these days, but you know what? I like that. I get to be intellectual enough every single day at the uni and at the work. I don't need to feel superior over other people for playing a freaking video game on my spare time for crying out loud!! And that's exactly what I see people doing on regular basis on various forums: "our game is so deep and it requires so much intelligence and it doesn't hold your hand and it's just not for everyone and yada yada yada." It's all just ego boosting.

That being said, I prefer sims and the supposedly more "intelligent" games like ArmA or the Paradox titles, but even in these I take convenience over ego boost any day. "Artificially difficult and poorly designed" doesn't equate to "more intelligent and challenging" game.

(Which, for the record, the Megaman games were not. I bloody loved those as much as the author of the video does.)

10-19-12, 11:25 AM

Awesome find Dowly! This video tells the truth... I am so sick and tired of "Press ´R´ to Reload!!!111" on-screen-messages that makes you feel like an idiot (and ruin every screenshot or video...)

Dowly · 10-19-12, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hottentot

*snip*

I was just talking about you with someone. I came to the conclusion that you need to
start another AAR. Like, right now. Just... drop what you're doing and get on it.

Hottentot · 10-19-12, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dowly

I was just talking about you with someone. I came to the conclusion that you need to
start another AAR. Like, right now. Just... drop what you're doing and get on it.

It has been a while indeed since the CK2 project sank into the swamp without making even any noises. I have at least three games on my to-do list. And I think the first one is going to the dumb shooter just because of this thread.

Dowly · 10-19-12, 11:57 AM

This is going way off-topic, but didn you ever play Silent Storm? That might have
some AAR worthy material. Heck, it even has a Finn called Otto in it.

(That is, if you like AMAZING turn base strategy)

Ok, as for the topic.

I'm a bit mixed about tutorials. Some games do it well, like Chivalry (and M&B IIRC)
where you access a new arena via the main menu screen and you can try stuff
out, and Chivalry's tutorial is spiced with humor, it starts with a black screen
and a text saying: "3 years before the MP game". I can appreciate that, I'm not
forced to go through it.

Then there's games where the first mission is just hand holding, with text and
puzzles you complete by just doing what the text tells you, those I don't like.

Of course, it's all about how you like your games. Generally, I like strategy and sims,
so I am prepared for the fact that I need to read a lot of stuff to fully learn the
game. Like Black Shark, it took me quite a while (and help from Arclight) to
finally lock and fire my first Vikhr, but at the same time, it felt pretty damn
great.

As long as a game doesn't force me to go through a tutorial, I'm ok with that,
but please leave the option to learn by yourself in.

Hottentot · 10-19-12, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dowly

This is going way off-topic, but didn you ever play Silent Storm? That might have
some AAR worthy material. Heck, it even has a Finn called Otto in it.

Sure I did. I never forget the Finn's (Olli if I recall, but could be wrong) voice actiong: the subtitles said "mahdoton" ("impossible" for the rest of the world) and the character blurted: "MÖHPÖPRÖÖH!"

Silent Storm just hasn't aged very well. I tried it again years later and couldn't stand it anymore. The cool factor had just worn off and I was more annoyed by the game's flaws. Of course flaws make great AAR material, but I make a point of not getting annoyed over writing those.

Dunno. Could try digging that up again at some point too, but my urge to write on military idiocy is currently better served by ArmA.

Takeda Shingen · 10-19-12, 12:09 PM

A lot of this was also because of the natural intuitiveness of the older games. Megaman, for example, followed the standard NES forumla of press A to jump, press B to shoot, throw, etc. More often than not, modern games don't follow a standard formula; choosing to promote their own control system. It isn't just poor games or annoying systems that do this either. Look at the differences between Arkham Asylum's counter-based system and Fallout 3's VATS. Sometimes a little tutorial goes a long way.

Dowly · 10-19-12, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hottentot

Sure I did. I never forget the Finn's (Olli if I recall, but could be wrong) voice actiong: the subtitles said "mahdoton" ("impossible" for the rest of the world) and the character blurted: "MÖHPÖPRÖÖH!"

Silent Storm just hasn't aged very well. I tried it again years later and couldn't stand it anymore. The cool factor had just worn off and I was more annoyed by the game's flaws. Of course flaws make great AAR material, but I make a point of not getting annoyed over writing those.

Dunno. Could try digging that up again at some point too, but my urge to write on military idiocy is currently better served by ArmA.

Oh right, yes, Olli he was.

Haven't played it in few years, tho always liked it.. until the battlesuits appeared.

But, go with what you are most comfortable with, really enjoy reading your stuff.

10-19-12, 02:51 PM

Silent Storm's combat engine is amazing I just wish that the Campaigns it was attached to weren't such utter wank.

Something along the lines of X-com or jagged alliance would of been so awesome with the Silent Storm Engine. (Hell Silent Storm had Alien weapons!)

HunterICX · 10-20-12, 03:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hottentot

It has been a while indeed since the CK2 project sank into the swamp without making even any noises.

It's a shame perhaps we should burn Raptor1 and the rest of the lot on the stakes for witchcraft and heresy! Ofcourse after that fresh oil on the racks has been put to good use.

I'll just bump that thread and ask them flat out if they wish to continue or not.

HunterICX

Arclight · 10-21-12, 07:29 AM

How Game Tutorials Can Strangle Player Creativity

Something that has often bothered me is people saying that they played through game X in, say, 8 hours; a lot of games allow for a bit of exploration. Not the run-down-this-corridor-and-shoot-people ones obviously, but something like Skyrim or Dishonored.

Point being that handholding extends beyond introducing mechanics to players. Having a big objective marker on screen at all times doesn't exactly encourage people to roam and discover on their own, instead just heading for that marker.

I feel like "corridor" games and handholding have conditioned a large amount of gamers to just taking the shortest route through a game, thereby missing a large portion of what it has on offer.

kiwi_2005 · 10-22-12, 04:40 PM

I remember when getting the sound in the first Mechwarrior to work if you didn't have the sound cards the game was configured for you had to go into dos and edit the config file just to enable, wasn't as easy as it is today editing a file for something to work. Sometimes even installing a dos game took a day and a half and then the game still might not run.

Then Directx came out with Windows 95 made everything so much easier.

10-19-12, 10:25 AM	#1
Dowly Lucky Jack Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 25,005 Downloads: 32 Uploads: 0	How games used to teach the player Sequelitis : Mega Man Classic vs. Mega Man X: It's a comparisation video, but most of it is about how games used to teach the player without silly hand holding.

10-19-12, 11:07 AM	#2
Hottentot Sea Lord Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: My private socialist utopia of Finland Posts: 1,918 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	Press fire button to fire. Nah, he does have a point. The old games were more unforgiving, but they also expected you to be able to breath without someone showing you first how to do it in a tutorial. Then again, some of them were just plain dumb in their expectations like the author of that video points out too. Personally I'd say the direction is towards the better. Yes, we all know the horror stories of scripts ruining the games, the features being "dumbed down" and the games being made for simpletons these days, but you know what? I like that. I get to be intellectual enough every single day at the uni and at the work. I don't need to feel superior over other people for playing a freaking video game on my spare time for crying out loud!! And that's exactly what I see people doing on regular basis on various forums: "our game is so deep and it requires so much intelligence and it doesn't hold your hand and it's just not for everyone and yada yada yada." It's all just ego boosting. That being said, I prefer sims and the supposedly more "intelligent" games like ArmA or the Paradox titles, but even in these I take convenience over ego boost any day. "Artificially difficult and poorly designed" doesn't equate to "more intelligent and challenging" game. (Which, for the record, the Megaman games were not. I bloody loved those as much as the author of the video does.) __________________ Хотели как лучше, а получилось как всегда.

10-21-12, 07:29 AM	#12
Arclight Navy Seal Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Land of windmills, tulips, wooden shoes and cheese. Lots of cheese. Posts: 8,467 Downloads: 53 Uploads: 10	How Game Tutorials Can Strangle Player Creativity Something that has often bothered me is people saying that they played through game X in, say, 8 hours; a lot of games allow for a bit of exploration. Not the run-down-this-corridor-and-shoot-people ones obviously, but something like Skyrim or Dishonored. Point being that handholding extends beyond introducing mechanics to players. Having a big objective marker on screen at all times doesn't exactly encourage people to roam and discover on their own, instead just heading for that marker. I feel like "corridor" games and handholding have conditioned a large amount of gamers to just taking the shortest route through a game, thereby missing a large portion of what it has on offer. __________________ Contritium praecedit superbia.

10-22-12, 04:40 PM	#13
kiwi_2005 Eternal Patrol Join Date: May 2004 Location: Aeoteroa Posts: 7,382 Downloads: 223 Uploads: 1	I remember when getting the sound in the first Mechwarrior to work if you didn't have the sound cards the game was configured for you had to go into dos and edit the config file just to enable, wasn't as easy as it is today editing a file for something to work. Sometimes even installing a dos game took a day and a half and then the game still might not run. Then Directx came out with Windows 95 made everything so much easier. __________________ RIP kiwi_2005 Those who can't laugh at themselves leave the job to others.

10-19-12, 11:25 AM	#3
Nippelspanner Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Awesome find Dowly! This video tells the truth... I am so sick and tired of "Press ´R´ to Reload!!!111" on-screen-messages that makes you feel like an idiot (and ruin every screenshot or video...)

10-19-12, 11:57 AM	#6
Dowly Lucky Jack Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 25,005 Downloads: 32 Uploads: 0	This is going way off-topic, but didn you ever play Silent Storm? That might have some AAR worthy material. Heck, it even has a Finn called Otto in it. (That is, if you like AMAZING turn base strategy) Ok, as for the topic. I'm a bit mixed about tutorials. Some games do it well, like Chivalry (and M&B IIRC) where you access a new arena via the main menu screen and you can try stuff out, and Chivalry's tutorial is spiced with humor, it starts with a black screen and a text saying: "3 years before the MP game". I can appreciate that, I'm not forced to go through it. Then there's games where the first mission is just hand holding, with text and puzzles you complete by just doing what the text tells you, those I don't like. Of course, it's all about how you like your games. Generally, I like strategy and sims, so I am prepared for the fact that I need to read a lot of stuff to fully learn the game. Like Black Shark, it took me quite a while (and help from Arclight) to finally lock and fire my first Vikhr, but at the same time, it felt pretty damn great. As long as a game doesn't force me to go through a tutorial, I'm ok with that, but please leave the option to learn by yourself in.

10-19-12, 12:09 PM	#8
Takeda Shingen Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2000 Posts: 8,643 Downloads: 19 Uploads: 0	A lot of this was also because of the natural intuitiveness of the older games. Megaman, for example, followed the standard NES forumla of press A to jump, press B to shoot, throw, etc. More often than not, modern games don't follow a standard formula; choosing to promote their own control system. It isn't just poor games or annoying systems that do this either. Look at the differences between Arkham Asylum's counter-based system and Fallout 3's VATS. Sometimes a little tutorial goes a long way.

10-19-12, 02:51 PM	#10
Rilder Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Silent Storm's combat engine is amazing I just wish that the Campaigns it was attached to weren't such utter wank. Something along the lines of X-com or jagged alliance would of been so awesome with the Silent Storm Engine. (Hell Silent Storm had Alien weapons!)