Greece leaves the Euro rescue program

Skybird · 08-21-18, 07:55 PM

Really? Does anyone believe that in a few years things will not once again have flamed up there? That the 250 billion that have been paid out in fact, or just any sums worth to be mentioned will ever be paid back? In several couple of decades? Even nations with better economies than Greece do not pay back their debts. Why does anyone dare to argue that Greece will? And how?

Its all a stage act to deceive the poublic. Especially the public in the net paying countries.

https://translate.google.com/transla...tml&edit-text=

German original source: LINK

Quote:

It has long since been forgotten that Greece has bargained for entry into the Eurozone. This was manipulated data (so-called interest swap transactions to disguise the Greek deficit figures) and the help of the US investment bank Goldman Sachs, whose vice president at that time in Europe was interestingly Mario Draghi.
(...)

Conclusion: Greece is still hopeless broke The myth that the rescue for Germany is a good deal, because 2.9 billion euros interest was taken is also a fallacy and pure eyecleaning, because these interest surpluses have already been referred back to Athens!

The euro is still and will continue to be too strong for the country in the future. As long as the euro is in Greece, the country will never emerge from the crisis, but will continue to hang on the drip and consequently the goodwill of the eurozone countries. As soon as the economy cools down - what we start with and what it looks like right now, we do not want to talk about the consequences of a global trade war - Greece will need fresh money again.

Catfish · 08-22-18, 04:33 AM

It is an especially greek problem, and will always be. If those big ship owners are publicly allowed not to pay taxes, and get all their money out of the country instead, the situation will never change.
That said, the fact that Greece is obviously able to get out of a financial crisis if there is at least some influence from outside, should shed a light on how abysmal badly this country is managed internally.
Reuters: Greece under tight watch post-bailout, can be a 'success story:' ESM

It is funny though how the EU is blamed once more for a positive outcome. Or this italian right-wing accusation that this recently broken bridge was a fault of the EU (which is especially picant, for the anti-EU right-wing "Five star movement" themselves cut off financial support for italian infrastructure maintenance of roads and bridges some time ago).
Genoa bridge collapse: Italy's governing populists wrote off safety fears as a children's 'fairy story' before disaster

What is positive however is, that the EU can and will be made responsible for anything bad happening in the future. A scape goat for all! And if something positive happens it will always be a conspiracy. How convenient

What would Greece have done, if it had not been in the EU? Not 50 years ago people were dying in Greece, by starvation and low temperatures. Disadvantages have to be seen in context and are relative.

Jimbuna · 08-22-18, 06:20 AM

Greece may still be Europe’s sick patient, but the EU is at death’s door.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...e-eu-austerity

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https://www.ft.com/content/aeb930e0-...a-7342fe5e173f

Quote:

In Germany — which for many Greeks came to epitomise an obsession with austerity as a solution to the country’s woes — the end of the programme was welcomed by the government as proof that the years of financial aid had worked.

“Greece’s salvation is also a sign of European solidarity,” Olaf Scholz, Germany’s centre-left finance minister, told Handelsblatt newspaper. “The conclusion of the Greece programme is a success. The bleak predictions of the prophets of doom have not come true.”

https://www.ft.com/content/aeb930e0-...a-7342fe5e173f

Skybird · 08-22-18, 11:32 AM

The porgram - a success? The Euro-Zone - having something learned? The zero-interest policy of the ECB is a lightly disguised exproprioation of htose who act respinisbly - and try to save for their fuiture. The debts of state sdin the Eurozone and gloibally are higher today than they were 10+ years ago. Already today calls that we should ease the "restrictive" spending policy and that we should allow to make more debts, are getting louder, especially in France, Spain, Italy, and of course Greece. And the German carricature of a national govenrment has signlaled that they will no longer resist seriously to a socialization of debts, of social insurance, unemployment insurrance and so forth.

A continental planned economy, in plain English.

The stockmamrket is through the ceiling, the values there can in no way be trusted, they simply do not make any sense anymore, the next collapse - can be in ten months, in ten days or in ten years.

As I see it the situation today is even more dramatic and dangerous than it was 2007, 2003, and in the late nineties. I find it impossible to predict anything. In a reasonable, sane business environment with a grounded fundament, things should be more predictable, not by regulation, but by the way the market functions. Instead, well, just look at the price of gold, and try to explain that. It makes no sense.

Nothing seems to make sense anymore. I have a few basic works on stockmarkets and index analysis in my book shelf. But I pulled out of all this gaming already almost two years ago. The situation is so confuse that it is lteralyl impossible to follow a reaosnable strategy, becasue you cannot know whether your strategy is in an environment where it indeed is a "strategy" anymore, making sense. You cannot forsee and predict anything, but evertyhign seems to be possible just any time. Total unpredictability, or in other words: whatever oyu try to do for good reasons, is en enforced gambvling. Pure betting, hopiong, praying that yoiu get away with it.

That is not investing. That is gambling. And you are beign forced to do now. Reasonably investing seems to be no more possible.

Things are being kept moving at the used direction by nothing but inherent momentum. But where there is friction, momentum eventually dies if no external net energy gets injected into it. Just pushing inflation, is not adding this energy, but it adds friction.

In 20 or less years, I am through with my life, health problems will probably get me earlier. But I doubt that the financial system will hold together for that long. I now own everything that I will ever own in my life, more is not to come, no insurrance, no pension, nothing. It should be enough to hold out for 30-35 years under normal economic conditions and with a moderate, reasonable material lifestyle without excessive spending. But the conditions are not normal at all, and the states become more and more draconic in their cleptocratic and paternalistic behaviour. All markers point at "totalitarianism in disguise", socialist dictatorshipo like we have had them so often before in European countries, in some even repeatedly. I could call myself lucky if what now is mine holds me afloat for at least half of those 30-35 years. Certain of that I am not. Not at all. My life's endgame most likely will become - exciting...

STEED · 08-22-18, 01:50 PM

I saw this pop up on the media business news all giving Greece the thumbs up well done very soon all debts and loans payed off. I was left thinking wow what sherbet dip you been snorting.

Jimbuna · 08-23-18, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by STEED

I saw this pop up on the media business news all giving Greece the thumbs up well done very soon all debts and loans payed off. I was left thinking wow what sherbet dip you been snorting.

I'd change my media sources if I were you.

Quote:

Will Greece Ever Pay Off Its Debt?

https://www.investopedia.com/article...y-its-debt.asp

Quote:

In total, Athens’ government debt pile stands at €321bn. Of this, €248bn is owed to its official sector creditors: its fellow member states (Greek loan facility), the eurozone’s two rescue funds (European Financial Stability Facility and European Stability Mechanism), the International Monetary Fund, and the European Central Bank.

These liabilities have accumulated over the last six years as Greece has been subject to three international rescues. Under its current terms, the country will still be paying back its debt until 2060

https://www.ft.com/content/b3124770-...a-b7a1b59c028e

Chris K · 08-23-18, 10:35 AM

I say no, that they never will pay 250 billion.Nope

STEED · 08-23-18, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

I'd change my media sources if I were you.

Sky or BBC business news jim. I have read it on some news sites Greece is looking good, I know they are clearly telling porkies or only part of the truth.

Jimbuna · 08-24-18, 04:21 AM

The BBC whilst still being better than most IMHO have nonetheless gone downhill somewhat in recent years.

Skybird · 08-24-18, 06:17 AM

Paper is patient. Both money and media reports.

Mainstrema media obey the wanted mainstream views propagated by our pillars of society, or beloved great leaders and know-it-alls, of Keynesian money messiahs. That they say that on yearly average the room temperature is comfortable while the house currently on this day today is ablaze, is no wonder.

It only needs some basic reason and sense of realism. Where should any wealth generation in Greece come from? The talents in their youth generations have migrated. They never were a heavily industrialised state anyway. Their administrating is inefficient. their political caste is still as corrupt as ever. They have no competitive economy and no natural ressources which to sell they could live off. Since decades they lived of tourism only - and the payments NATO partners agreed in various forms due to their geostrategic location on the map. But that is no longer valid after the cold war. They are still linked to a currency system that does not allow them adaptation by individual currency exchange rates.

There can be no lasting bettering on ground of such a shaky "fundament". From nothing comes nothing, expect maybe in cosmology.

I already mentally prepare for the fourth and fift rescue programs. Give it a little time, just a few years, it will come. Promised.

Buying Greek bonds is no investment, its pure gamble and hoping to get away with a profit before the show once again collapses. Gambling and strategy are two very different things. If you can afford it, can live with possible severe losses, like the excitement, buy. If you indeed want to invest, scratch Greece off your list of reasonable options. Its a money annihilation machine.

08-22-18, 04:33 AM	#2
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 16,897 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	It is an especially greek problem, and will always be. If those big ship owners are publicly allowed not to pay taxes, and get all their money out of the country instead, the situation will never change. That said, the fact that Greece is obviously able to get out of a financial crisis if there is at least some influence from outside, should shed a light on how abysmal badly this country is managed internally. Reuters: Greece under tight watch post-bailout, can be a 'success story:' ESM It is funny though how the EU is blamed once more for a positive outcome. Or this italian right-wing accusation that this recently broken bridge was a fault of the EU (which is especially picant, for the anti-EU right-wing "Five star movement" themselves cut off financial support for italian infrastructure maintenance of roads and bridges some time ago). Genoa bridge collapse: Italy's governing populists wrote off safety fears as a children's 'fairy story' before disaster What is positive however is, that the EU can and will be made responsible for anything bad happening in the future. A scape goat for all! And if something positive happens it will always be a conspiracy. How convenient What would Greece have done, if it had not been in the EU? Not 50 years ago people were dying in Greece, by starvation and low temperatures. Disadvantages have to be seen in context and are relative. __________________ >^..^<)))>{ All generalizations are wrong. Last edited by Catfish; 08-22-18 at 04:41 AM.*

08-22-18, 11:32 AM	#4
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,545 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	The porgram - a success? The Euro-Zone - having something learned? The zero-interest policy of the ECB is a lightly disguised exproprioation of htose who act respinisbly - and try to save for their fuiture. The debts of state sdin the Eurozone and gloibally are higher today than they were 10+ years ago. Already today calls that we should ease the "restrictive" spending policy and that we should allow to make more debts, are getting louder, especially in France, Spain, Italy, and of course Greece. And the German carricature of a national govenrment has signlaled that they will no longer resist seriously to a socialization of debts, of social insurance, unemployment insurrance and so forth. A continental planned economy, in plain English. The stockmamrket is through the ceiling, the values there can in no way be trusted, they simply do not make any sense anymore, the next collapse - can be in ten months, in ten days or in ten years. As I see it the situation today is even more dramatic and dangerous than it was 2007, 2003, and in the late nineties. I find it impossible to predict anything. In a reasonable, sane business environment with a grounded fundament, things should be more predictable, not by regulation, but by the way the market functions. Instead, well, just look at the price of gold, and try to explain that. It makes no sense. Nothing seems to make sense anymore. I have a few basic works on stockmarkets and index analysis in my book shelf. But I pulled out of all this gaming already almost two years ago. The situation is so confuse that it is lteralyl impossible to follow a reaosnable strategy, becasue you cannot know whether your strategy is in an environment where it indeed is a "strategy" anymore, making sense. You cannot forsee and predict anything, but evertyhign seems to be possible just any time. Total unpredictability, or in other words: whatever oyu try to do for good reasons, is en enforced gambvling. Pure betting, hopiong, praying that yoiu get away with it. That is not investing. That is gambling. And you are beign forced to do now. Reasonably investing seems to be no more possible. Things are being kept moving at the used direction by nothing but inherent momentum. But where there is friction, momentum eventually dies if no external net energy gets injected into it. Just pushing inflation, is not adding this energy, but it adds friction. In 20 or less years, I am through with my life, health problems will probably get me earlier. But I doubt that the financial system will hold together for that long. I now own everything that I will ever own in my life, more is not to come, no insurrance, no pension, nothing. It should be enough to hold out for 30-35 years under normal economic conditions and with a moderate, reasonable material lifestyle without excessive spending. But the conditions are not normal at all, and the states become more and more draconic in their cleptocratic and paternalistic behaviour. All markers point at "totalitarianism in disguise", socialist dictatorshipo like we have had them so often before in European countries, in some even repeatedly. I could call myself lucky if what now is mine holds me afloat for at least half of those 30-35 years. Certain of that I am not. Not at all. My life's endgame most likely will become - exciting... __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

08-22-18, 01:50 PM	#5
STEED Lucky Jack Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Down Town UK Posts: 27,695 Downloads: 89 Uploads: 48	I saw this pop up on the media business news all giving Greece the thumbs up well done very soon all debts and loans payed off. I was left thinking wow what sherbet dip you been snorting. __________________ Dr Who rest in peace 1963-2017. To borrow Davros saying...I NAME YOU CHIBNALL THE DESTROYER OF DR WHO YOU KILLED IT!

08-23-18, 10:35 AM	#7
Chris K Gunner Join Date: Aug 2018 Location: NYC Posts: 95 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I say no, that they never will pay 250 billion.Nope Last edited by Chris K; 08-23-18 at 01:49 PM.

08-24-18, 04:21 AM	#9
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 181,344 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	The BBC whilst still being better than most IMHO have nonetheless gone downhill somewhat in recent years. __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!! GWX3.0 Download Page - Donation/instant access to GWX (Help SubSim)

08-24-18, 06:17 AM	#10
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,545 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	Paper is patient. Both money and media reports. Mainstrema media obey the wanted mainstream views propagated by our pillars of society, or beloved great leaders and know-it-alls, of Keynesian money messiahs. That they say that on yearly average the room temperature is comfortable while the house currently on this day today is ablaze, is no wonder. It only needs some basic reason and sense of realism. Where should any wealth generation in Greece come from? The talents in their youth generations have migrated. They never were a heavily industrialised state anyway. Their administrating is inefficient. their political caste is still as corrupt as ever. They have no competitive economy and no natural ressources which to sell they could live off. Since decades they lived of tourism only - and the payments NATO partners agreed in various forms due to their geostrategic location on the map. But that is no longer valid after the cold war. They are still linked to a currency system that does not allow them adaptation by individual currency exchange rates. There can be no lasting bettering on ground of such a shaky "fundament". From nothing comes nothing, expect maybe in cosmology. I already mentally prepare for the fourth and fift rescue programs. Give it a little time, just a few years, it will come. Promised. Buying Greek bonds is no investment, its pure gamble and hoping to get away with a profit before the show once again collapses. Gambling and strategy are two very different things. If you can afford it, can live with possible severe losses, like the excitement, buy. If you indeed want to invest, scratch Greece off your list of reasonable options. Its a money annihilation machine. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.