US Politics Thread 2016-2020

[em2nought]

Originally Posted by Bleiente

Unfortunately, he has now done so much damage that no one can calculate the impact.

Yep, renegotiating everything "we" give the farm away on is terrible.

[August]

Originally Posted by em2nought

Yep, renegotiating everything "we" give the farm away on is terrible.

Yes oh woe is us. Europeans prognosticating our imminent doom. You'd think they'd tire of being proved wrong for over 200 years now.

[em2nought]

Originally Posted by August

Yes oh woe is us. Europeans prognosticating our imminent doom. You'd think they'd tire of being proved wrong for over 200 years now.

We are doomed, but at least Trump might have bought us another twenty or thirty years.

[HunterICX]

Originally Posted by Ashikaga

Canadians British and Polish to be exact. US involvement was limited to Patton's army near Maastricht and the 101st and 82nd during the Battle of Arnhem.

Last time I checked Patton's Third army was out of fuel and supplies near Moselle which is aprox 250km away from Maastricht.

Originally Posted by August

Well that's a far different tune than what your countrymen were singing the last time I was there.

The ones I met (perhaps they were biased being Nijmegeners) believed that Monty and the Brits had unnecessarily made a bloody shambles of their country and they wished that it had been the US running that part of the front instead. Now i'm not saying that had they got their wish we would really have done any better, but do you seriously think that anyone would have been along to liberate you at all without the US?

I guess it depends on where you'd ask in the Netherlands, the south who got liberated or the North who had to suffer through the ''Hongerwinter'' (Hunger Winter) when the Germans cut the food supplies as retaliation of the Dutch National Railway went on strike to help the allied efforts during Market Garden. But overal you'd find us grateful for liberating our country towards all who took part in it.

Anyway Hindsight, Monty's execution of the plan was a mess, too many risks and terrible use of intelligence. If the US was running the show they would have isolated the Netherlands and pushed straight through the Rheinland into Germany and if Patton had his way all the way to Berlin.

As for our revolution I believe that Dutch support was limited to some financial loans and secret arms shipments no? French soldiers fought side by side with Americans. They shed their blood, gave their lives and eventually bankrupted themselves for our cause. That is not really the same thing, but thanks all the same and definitely mega dittos for not turning our downed bomber crews over to the Gestapo! You folks are just awesome!

Financial Loans, use of our Neutral ports by the French to covertly supply arms to the Americans, Dutch Merchants did so too via our West Indies colonies, we gave sanctuary to American Privateers, established Diplomatic relations with the US and while we didn't declare a military alliance with the French to fight Britain(something the Dutch people wanted), Britain did declare war upon us for the above since they saw our actions contravened the Republic's neutral stance (4th Anglo-Dutch War). Also on the on April 19 1782, the Dutch formally recognized the United States. For a small country that's realistically what you could expect even if we did wanted to do more.

As for hiding Air crew from the Gestapo, well...who did like the Gestapo anyway.

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by HunterICX

Anyway Hindsight, Monty's execution of the plan was a mess, too many risks and terrible use of intelligence.

The plan nearly worked, it was the failure of the 82nd Airborne to take the Nijmegen bridge or at the very least secure the south end of it that botched the operation before it had barely began. Had the bridge been secure, German reinforcements couldn't have gotten to Nijmegen and fortify it, which would have made XXX Corps' job easier when they arrived on day 3. That in turn would have meant that there wouldn't have been a ~36 hour delay at Nijmegen and XXX Corps just might have been in time at Arnhem to help out 2PARA before they surrendered and in turn let the 9th SS Panzer Division over the Arnhem bridge to further cause XXX Corps headache post-Nijmegen.

"What is seldom understood is that the Arnhem battle was in reality won at Nijmegen.
If the Allies had taken the [Nijmegen]Bridge on the first day, it would have been all over
for us. Even if we had lost it on the second day, we would have had difficulty stopping
them. By the time the English tanks arrived, the matter was already decided."
- SS-Brigadeführer Heinz Harmel

[mako88sb]

Originally Posted by Dowly

The plan nearly worked, it was the failure of the 82nd Airborne to take the Nijmegen bridge or at the very least secure the south end of it that botched the operation before it had barely began. Had the bridge been secure, German reinforcements couldn't have gotten to Nijmegen and fortify it, which would have made XXX Corps' job easier when they arrived on day 3. That in turn would have meant that there wouldn't have been a ~36 hour delay at Nijmegen and XXX Corps just might have been in time at Arnhem to help out 2PARA before they surrendered and in turn let the 9th SS Panzer Division over the Arnhem bridge to further cause XXX Corps headache post-Nijmegen.

"What is seldom understood is that the Arnhem battle was in reality won at Nijmegen.
If the Allies had taken the [Nijmegen]Bridge on the first day, it would have been all over
for us. Even if we had lost it on the second day, we would have had difficulty stopping
them. By the time the English tanks arrived, the matter was already decided."
- SS-Brigadeführer Heinz Harmel

I'm currently reading Tim Saunder's "The Island" and it's pretty revealing just how bad for armored warfare the terrain was past Nijmegen towards Elst. Not sure if XXX Corps could have done it after finding out that info but yes, if the Yanks had secured the Nijmegen bridge on the first day, XXX Corps would have least had a chance.

[August]

Oh right it's all the 82nds fault. That's like saying the boat sank because the crew didn't bail fast enough, not because the Captain tore it's bottom out on the rocks.

The truth is that Market Garden was a poor operational plan that was doomed to failure from the start.

Aside from it's obvious deficiencies (not enough aircraft, a single road for the main advance, DZ's that were miles from their objectives, useless radios), it was also based on light resistance and the operation should have been cancelled once they found out the Germans had moved two Panzer divisions into the area (like the Dutch Underground told them).

Oh and it probably wasn't a good idea to let the complete set of operational maps and plans fall into the enemies hands on the first day of the operation either.

Then there was the failure of Monty to clear the Scheldt Estuary before launching the operation. Called "one of the greatest tactical mistakes of the war" it not only severely exacerbated and prolonged the Allies supply problems (they were still hauling everything up to the front over the Normandy beaches) but it also allowed an entire German army (the 15th I think) to escape and attack along the entire flank of the advance. That means the failure of Market Garden wasn't the fault of the Airborne, American, British or Pole, but directly with Montgomery and his staff.

Personally I think Ike should have told Monty to get stuffed and gave Patton supply priority instead. We'd have been across the Rhine in September or October '44 instead of March '45.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by HunterICX

Anyway Hindsight, Monty's execution of the plan was a mess, too many risks and terrible use of intelligence. If the US was running the show they would have isolated the Netherlands and pushed straight through the Rheinland into Germany and if Patton had his way all the way to Berlin.

God, that would have been epic.

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by August

Oh right it's all the 82nds fault. That's like saying the boat sank because the crew didn't bail fast enough, not because the Captain tore it's bottom out on the rocks.

The truth is that Market Garden was a poor operational plan that was doomed to failure from the start.

This often repeated claim completely ignores what transpired on the ground during the operation. The various failures in the plan you mentioned don't offer a singular, primary reason for why the operation failed on the ground.

Failure to take Nijmegen on day 1 does.

[August]

Originally Posted by Dowly

This often repeated claim completely ignores what transpired on the ground during the operation. The various failures in the plan you mentioned don't offer a singular, primary reason for why the operation failed on the ground.

Failure to take Nijmegen on day 1 does.

Well then I bow to your lack of experience and knowledge on the subject.

[Mr Quatro]

I don't think August will wear this tee shirt ... perhaps vienna will

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by August

Well then I bow to your lack of experience and knowledge on the subject.

What a masterful argument, August. Bravo!

[Onkel Neal]

I like the wit and sarcasm that stays within the bounds of good taste, thumbs up

[August]

Originally Posted by Mr Quatro

I don't think August will wear this tee shirt ... perhaps vienna will

Send it to Dowly. He'll wear it...

[nikimcbee]

Did I miss anything?


Meh, Reece's b-day thread is where it's at anyway.