US Politics Thread 2016-2020

[Onkel Neal]

I have to ask, has anyone else wondered at how people in 2018 are using their standards to judge the actions of people who lived in 1982?

[ikalugin]

That is the new norm.

[VipertheSniper]

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

I have to ask, has anyone else wondered at how people in 2018 are using their standards to judge the actions of people who lived in 1982?

I'm not sure what you're getting at here, attempted rape was a crime back then too, no?

If he did what he's accused of, it was just as wrong then as it would be if he did that today.

Not sure where 2018 standards come into the equation.

[Dowly]

"Modern" standards have been applied to past events since the advent of recorded history.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by VipertheSniper

I'm not sure what you're getting at here, attempted rape was a crime back then too, no?

In 1982 Brett Kavanaugh was 17 years old. Christine Ford was 15. If he did it (and that's still a big IF) he was legally a minor at the time. That does make a difference in the eyes of the law.

There is no legal case here. What this is about is Liberal Democrats trying to block any attempt by President Trump to put another Conservative on the Supreme Court. Nothing more, nothing less. The law has nothing to do with it.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by VipertheSniper

I'm not sure what you're getting at here, attempted rape was a crime back then too, no?

If he did what he's accused of, it was just as wrong then as it would be if he did that today.

Not sure where 2018 standards come into the equation.

Different times. When I was in high school, pressuring a girl on a date was nothing unusual. What is considered rape now was not the same then. And if you are high-minded and this shocks you, sorry. But don't take my word for it, just review some of the popular culture of the time. That's just the way things were then.

[Skybird]

"Pressing a girl", and date rape, are two different things in my book. Back then, and today.



Also, there are more allegations made against Kavanaugh, by two other women. Again, older ones, but still: if true, three form a pattern.



Date or not, there is a red line that the boy should only overstep if the girl allows it. Beyond that, its rape, plain and simple. Its no life style then, its no pop art, its no culture - its rape. Back then. And today.



That this all now boils so hot is just a symptom for and a consequence of the hostile polarization that Trump did not the smallest effort to overcome. Instead he uses just every opportunity to spill more fuel into the fire. He surfs on this situation. Without it, he possibly already would be gone.


Voting citizens of the US should make the only reasonable step: turning away from BOTH parties. None of the two is innocent in all this mess. Let both parties collapse and then send the remains to hell.

[em2nought]

This might as well be a picture of every Republican since Reagan, and until Trump in regard to dealing with the DemonRats

[Dowly]

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Skybird

"Pressing a girl", and date rape, are two different things in my book. Back then, and today.



Also, there are more allegations made against Kavanaugh, by two other women. Again, older ones, but still: if true, three form a pattern.



Date or not, there is a red line that the boy should only overstep if the girl allows it. Beyond that, its rape, plain and simple. Its no life style then, its no pop art, its no culture - its rape. Back then. And today.

.

Yeah yeah, I feel the same way. Today.

Like it or not, most people did not see it that way in 1982. Men and women. I don't recall a girl throwing a fit and declaring "sexual assault!" or "date rape!" in 1982. It was a different time.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

Yeah yeah, I feel the same way. Today.

Like it or not, most people did not see it that way in 1982. Men and women. I don't recall a girl throwing a fit and declaring "sexual assault!" or "date rape!" in 1982. It was a different time.

And would you conclude from that they liked getting date-raped?



Like you I grew up in that era, Neal. Finished school 1985. And i am far from lining up with today's many lobby groups on hypersensitivities, special rights for X, Y and Z, and gender and feminism and minority quotas and all that stuff. It makes me sick. And still:



That there was no policy of getting public over certain things in the 80s does not mean it was okay or tolerable to enforce what was not wanted by the one side. And the offender who overstepped the red line always has had the freedom to decide that he would not do it.



And in that last sentence lies what really matters. Its not about different understanding of formalities back then and today. Like it is not punishable when you say that "you have to grab women by their pussies" (sorry, i only quote your formidable POTUS), it nevertheless tells something important and relevant about the character, or lack of, of the somebody making such a contemptuous statement. It reveals a fundamental, basic attitude towards the subject.



They do not look just for a clerk in some unimportant office in the basement. And so, higher standards must be applied. The appearance of Kavanaugh in the hearing did not convince me he was honest. He pressed all the buttons to trigger the reaction he wanted to get.



The situation is deeply poisoned due to the deep hostility and polarization in your country. If both sides indeed would mean the best for the country, they would sit together and try to find a less controversial candidate. Instead both sides go for "All or nothing at all". The looser is the institution of the court, its loss of recognition and respectability and trustworthiness and in the end: the American people being affected by its decisions, and turning sceptical if not hostile to it.


I do not see how America ever will "heal" again after these deep rifts of the presents.

[Bilge_Rat]

Well if you want to get technical based on 1982 Maryland law and assuming everything happened exactly as Ford testified:

1. There was no "sexual assault" since that legal term did not exist in 1982;

2. There was no "rape" since that requires forcible penetration;

3. It is debatable if it even rises to the level of "attempted rape" since you would have to show his intent was to rape her and he made a serious attempt to accomplish his goal;

The reality is that even if she had complained in 1982, it is doubtful the police would have charged him with anything.

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

1. There was no "sexual assault" since that legal term did not exist in 1982;

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't 'sexual assault' an umbrella term that covers various sexual crimes?

[Skybird]

Well, some young people seriously argue that a blowjob, sorry, "is no sex".

Rape only when penetration occurs? That must be a male's law, no doubt. You can be sexually attacking even if penetration does not occur and may not even be desired by the pervert committing the attack.

German law qualifies not just penetration as rape, but also especially humiliating enforced sexual activities without penetration.

[ikalugin]

humiliating enforced sexual activities without penetration.

So glancing accidentally?