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01-31-17, 09:46 PM | #1 |
Sea Lord
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Anyone familiar with Luftwaffe (WW2) Aircraft ID codes?
Here's the thing:
There is one particular aircraft that flew during WW2 before being shot down. It was a Heinkel 111 with the ID code 5J + CN. I am attempting to place that aircraft in the squadron it flew, if possible down to its number within the squadron, so to know that plane's individual place in the squadron. Here's what I got so far: The bombers were organized in Combat Wings (KG) and Combat Wing 4 (KG4) had the code 5J, so this aircraft was part of KG4, which I already knew but this verified that 5J was indeed referring to KG4. Then things get a bit cloudier but a couple of things from Wikipedia: Each KG was organized in groups (Gruppe). At the time this aircraft was shot down in late April 1940, KG4 consisted of 3 groups + HQ (Gruppe I, Gr. II and Gr. III + HQ). Each Gruppe would consist of 3 squadrons (Staffel) where the Sqdr. 1-3 were in Gr I, Sqdr 4-6 in Gr.2 and so on and so forth. This aircraft flew in sqdr. 5, in Gr. II. in KG4. This I know for a fact. It adds up to what Wiki says about number of squadrons per group. From https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geschwaderkennung and http://www.luftfahrt-erfurt.de/seite14.htm it seems obvious that the N in CN refers to Sqrd. 5, therefor also Gr. II. However, those 2 pages appear to disagree in the C. From the German Wiki (I don't read German really but I think I could make out the few bits I needed above) it appears that the C would refer to Gr. II which would make sense. Then CN would spell out Gr. II/Sqdr. 5 but that other page has another bomber in the same KG named BN and if I would follow the same system as on Wiki, that B would refer to Gr. I and not (as it seems to me) the 2nd individual plane in squadron 5 (N, Gr. II). Could any of you who do read German tell me if I read that thing totally wrong or if there is a discrepancy between the 2 pages? Would any of you happen to know how to read the ID codes down to the smallest details it offers? I am thinking: Would it make sense to ID individual aircrafts down to squadron size only and not down to individual aircrafts? I would think not but that the CN part does indeed tell which individual craft we have here. I am going for 5J = KG4 C = 3rd plane in N = squadron 5 (therefor Gr.II) but would appreciate any Germanspeaking person or someone familiar with these codes to verify or tell me I'm wrong. The older system they used as explained in the 2nd link seems to say F was plane 7 but I can't seem to work out how F could mean plane 7 and not 6. Last edited by Von Due; 01-31-17 at 10:10 PM. |
02-01-17, 05:01 AM | #2 |
Lucky Jack
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Yes, I think you are correct.
5J+CN 5J = KG 4 C= Aircraft 3 (C), Staffel 5 (Colour) N = Staffel 5, II Gruppe |
02-01-17, 05:02 AM | #3 |
Starte das Auto
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I'd concur with your final assessment (presuming that the individual aircraft letter is RED??)... you have an aircraft of 5 Staffel. How much further you can go than this I'm not certain, but there could be (I think) as many as 16 aircraft in a Staffel.
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02-01-17, 06:09 AM | #4 |
Sea Lord
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Thanks for the input guys and yeah, the colour thing: What I think is, the colour code was used on the letter signifying individual planes but the colour itself was determined by whether the plane belonged to the 1st, 2nd or 3rd squadron in a group, bearing in mind the 1st squadron of Gr. 2 was 4. Staffel, 2nd squadron of Gr. 3 was 8. Staffel and so on.
The letter C is red, signifying it belongs to the 2nd squadron in its Gruppe (1st squadron would be white, 3rd squadron would be yellow, ref. the Wiki page.). This adds up to the plane flying in the 5th (N) squadron and that squadron being the 2nd in its Gruppe. EDIT: Just realized that if any of this is actually true, that this is how it actually worked back then, then the Fighter Wings (JG) had a completely different system I have absolutely no idea how worked, seeing lots of pics of fighters using only a single coloured number, then _perhaps_ but not always, a symbol, decal or something tailside of the cross. Sometimes there was nothing but a coloured number and the cross, and the colour scheme included more colours than the 3 for bomber squadrons. Then, to make matters worse, sometimes they didn't use any number at all, just a single symbol nose-side of the cross. Last edited by Von Due; 02-01-17 at 07:03 AM. |
02-01-17, 08:11 AM | #5 |
Chief of the Boat
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A mine of information in the links below.
http://www.rlm.at/cont/archiv02_e.htm http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/markings.html http://www.ww2.dk/misc/unitid.htm http://histomil.com/viewtopic.php?t=11524&start=10
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02-01-17, 08:28 AM | #6 | |
Lucky Jack
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Quote:
First of all, unit ID was done by placing the unit emblem near the nose or the cockpit. The fuselage markings consisted of individual plane #, squadron and group. Plane # and squadron were forward of the Cross, a colored number or colored outline of the number. Squadron 1: White Squadron 2: Red or Black Squadron 3: Yellow (Squadron 4, if used: Blue) After the Cross was the group identifier. These could be colored with the squadron color or left black. Group I: none Group II: horizontal bar Group III: wavy line or vertical bar Group IV: half wavy line, + or a filled circle. So, a fighter with fuselage markings 3#~ Aircraft #3 Group III (wavy line) 8. Squadron (red color) i.e. 8./JG X The symbols replacing the number forward of the Cross were used by staff. Group commander would have a << symbol instead of a number, group adjutant < etc. etc. Oh and these all might be a little different from JG to JG. EDIT: Forgot to mention that the squadron # was a running number, so Group I would have 1-3, Group II 4-6, Group III 7-9. Unless, of course, the unit had 4 squadrons per group. Last edited by Dowly; 02-01-17 at 08:45 AM. |
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02-01-17, 08:57 AM | #7 |
Sea Lord
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Top notch posts by both of you there
On a slight side note: For personal emblems, I have to give it to A. Galland,he must have had some good connections allowing him to paint Mickey Mouse on his personal plane. Also, he flew what was probably the only fighter in the airforce with a cigar lighter installed in the cockpit Quite the dandy fellow. Anyway, looks like my original quest has been completed. Thanks again for the inputs, guys. |
02-01-17, 10:17 AM | #8 |
Eternal Patrol
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Have you read Galland's book, The First And The Last? It's a good one.
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02-01-17, 12:09 PM | #9 | ||
Gefallen Engel U-666
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Quote:
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Fornebu Airfield, Oslo under Luftwaffe control. note photo date vs mission date-the plane is probably in the shot! http://www.nuav.net/ooblw.html Your BBY is currently on display at the Norwegian Armed Forces Aircraft Collection note the stylish 'c' also in the unit emblem.
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"Only two things are infinite; The Universe and human squirrelyness; and I'm not too sure about the Universe" Last edited by Aktungbby; 02-01-17 at 12:36 PM. Reason: tidied up a bit |
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02-01-17, 01:03 PM | #10 |
Starte das Auto
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Fascinating... I'm wondering whether anyone has painted that yet?
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02-01-17, 01:19 PM | #11 | |||
Gefallen Engel U-666
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Egad! Now we're really Skua'd!
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Hey! U could do model box tops too!! Quote:
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"Only two things are infinite; The Universe and human squirrelyness; and I'm not too sure about the Universe" Last edited by Aktungbby; 02-01-17 at 01:45 PM. Reason: 'drawing' attn. 2 eich's fabulous combat art talents! |
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02-01-17, 02:48 PM | #12 | |
Sea Lord
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Found this
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http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chr..._Ark_Royal.htm The Skua was more a bite than a He111 would be happy to chew, despite the Skua was pretty outdated itself. The 111 was fast but seriously underprotected and Ark Royal's Skuas enjoyed quite a few victories. Lucky for the Brits the mainstay of the German fighter force in Norway was the 110 which was only slightly more of a threat as a fighter than a sitting duck. Last edited by Von Due; 02-01-17 at 02:58 PM. |
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02-02-17, 03:31 AM | #13 |
Silent Hunter
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Just learned a lot about aircraft information and codes that I didn't know, I didn't know.
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02-01-17, 01:07 PM | #14 |
Sea Lord
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That would be the very same and one. I know it's there, I was fortunate to get a close look at it in the late 70's when it was undergoing restoration. Also met 2 of the surviving crewmembers including the skipper, as well as 2 of the Brits from 801st who shot it down. They were gathered for a memorial service for the gunner Willi Stock who was killed in the battle. Also present, IIRC (at least she came up here at some point) was Willi's daughter.
EDIT: Come to think of it. They sure had rotten luck. Taking part in the Polish campaign and was shot down early without casualties. Transfered to Norway where they again were shot down on one of their first sorties, this time for good. The 111 was a sleek plane, in the 30's but by 1940 it was as modern as a T-ford. |
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