LuftWolf and Amizaur's Weapons and Sensors Realism Mod

[HydroShok]

i got some suggestions for the lwami mod (not sure if any of this is possible to mod for)

1)Longer range radars on some of the land targets. A little unrealistic maybe, but opens the door for some long range online TLAM strikes. Right now at about 18 miles, thats too small. A coupla sonobuoys would cover that space with 6 mile active range. I figured out recently that if you put the airport on a mountain, you can pick up its radar up to 82 miles away (a little excessive, looking for about maybe 25-50 miles). Make the p3 have to hunt a little harder for that sub about to launch soon. Using teamwork to locate the land targets spread out over a large map would be cool, something different.

2)theres a satelite in the game. The one from SC that you find under the ice in that one mission. Is there anyway it can jacked up way in the air and be given a visual sensor or radar maybe? If it can't move, a map maker could just bring it in and out of the map temporarily with triggers at certain times. I thought it would be kewl, and realistic too, for subs to come up to P-depth and link up to a satelite. Find that convoy a long ways away.

3)the DPRK have a modified fishing boat in game. I thought this little sneaky joker would be a nice touch online(once again, something for subs to link with). But the enemy AI instantly knows what it is and isn't fooled by the "fake fishing boat". They blow it out of the water pretty quick if its not neutral. Humans wouldn't know the difference if it weren't for the modded fishing boat not using radar for some reason. Its always on EMCON. But it seems like it does have a radar in the database.

4)i have no idea how realistic this is, but is there any way we can get the Sea Dart, perhaps on the SAM site? I've seen the SD in the USNI and with DWedit, but don't know of any unit that actually uses it. If i remember correctly, its a 35 mile range SAM.



I tried putting the sensors on the above units myself with DWedit, didn't work. Was hoping that i was doing it all wrong, lol.

[Bellman]

I had high hopes for the 'modified' fishing boat 'linking' after switching from neautral but her radar wont play ball.

Would be a real nice 'realistic' spy/sneaky feature if those LwAmi Time Lords could 'engineer' it.

[OKO]

Originally Posted by HydroShok

i got some suggestions for the lwami mod (not sure if any of this is possible to mod for)

1)Longer range radars on some of the land targets. A little unrealistic maybe, but opens the door for some long range online TLAM strikes. Right now at about 18 miles, thats too small. A coupla sonobuoys would cover that space with 6 mile active range. I figured out recently that if you put the airport on a mountain, you can pick up its radar up to 82 miles away (a little excessive, looking for about maybe 25-50 miles). Make the p3 have to hunt a little harder for that sub about to launch soon. Using teamwork to locate the land targets spread out over a large map would be cool, something different.

you forgot the earth curve, Hydroshok !
All ranges you mentionned are conditionned by the elevation of the source.
There is nothing to touch at all in this matter
Things are perfectly realistic actually => this is not the range of radars but curve of the planet that limit the detection range on surface platforms.
Near all naval radars today are able to emit at more range than they could actually receive a contact, because the curve avoid them to see the contact.

[Hatch]

Testing FFG7

Scenario setup:

Mission: N. Atlantic Convoy
Patch: 1.03b
LW/AMI Version 3.00b

• Following the operational doctrine of EMCON established for an FFG7, all emitting sensors were shut down, The helo was sent out to lay down a picket line of sonobuoys, while in transit, I set the Helo to link its radar to the FFG (REMRO) so as to keep the frigate under EMCON, once the Backfire appeared, I used the Helo’s radar to track the TU-22M and assign an SM-2 to engage the Backfire, the FCR gave me a fire solution, I fired and the SM -2 went in the totally opposite direction of its target, if the Helo’s radar link can not be used to fire the SM-2, then it should not give you the “Fire� option enabled as it did, if on the contrary it can be used to acquire and assign targets to the SM-2, something is not working properly. Also, the Helo’s radar did not paint the incoming Vampires, only the TU-22M.
• In the bridge, the “Ordered� speed setting is always marking 29 knots, no matter what changes you make, either by using the speed control handle, or by manually setting the speed, it always shows 29 knots.
• The longer TA cable certainly makes for a clearer passive sensor, but wouldn’t you know it, it got caught by one of the convoy’s ships and ate it (I think, there was nothing else that could have crippled it), certainly realistic, something to keep in mind you FFG drivers. Also, I am aware that the depth of the TA transducer is dictated by the length of the cable, or the speed of the frigate, wouldn't be nice if the transducer had a fin stabilizer effect, where you could set its traveling depth to adjust for a given situation, this would be aquestion for the game engine I guess, just an idea.

That’s all I got for now, I’ll keep on giving this thing a once over and see what else I can come up with, see you.

Hatch

[LuftWolf]

Following the operational doctrine of EMCON established for an FFG7, all emitting sensors were shut down, The helo was sent out to lay down a picket line of sonobuoys, while in transit, I set the Helo to link its radar to the FFG (REMRO) so as to keep the frigate under EMCON, once the Backfire appeared, I used the Helo’s radar to track the TU-22M and assign an SM-2 to engage the Backfire, the FCR gave me a fire solution, I fired and the SM -2 went in the totally opposite direction of its target, if the Helo’s radar link can not be used to fire the SM-2, then it should not give you the “Fire� option enabled as it did, if on the contrary it can be used to acquire and assign targets to the SM-2, something is not working properly. Also, the Helo’s radar did not paint the incoming Vampires, only the TU-22M.

Yes, sometimes the SM-2's seem to act a bit funny. You have to make sure that your FCR is actually painting the target and that it is in range ALSO, you have to have your search radar paint the target as well. So firing on link contacts with SM-2's generally doesn't work. Make sure you are firing (have your FCR painting) the contact generated by the search radar, as both are necessary for the missile to work correctly.

Also, it is a well known short coming of the link that AI missile link contacts are not shared with humans. This is unfortunate and hopefully will be corrected in the future, as AI platforms share linked information on missiles freely as any other target class.

In the bridge, the “Ordered� speed setting is always marking 29 knots, no matter what changes you make, either by using the speed control handle, or by manually setting the speed, it always shows 29 knots.

This is an unfortunate consequence of the fix in 3.00b for the FFG speed bug in 1.03b, the FFG is too sluggish and does not reach top speed under most conditions. This has been fixed for the full version of 1.03 and 3.00.

Thanks for the feedback! Keep it coming!

Cheers,
David

[Hatch]

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

Yes, sometimes the SM-2's seem to act a bit funny. You have to make sure that your FCR is actually painting the target and that it is in range ALSO, you have to have your search radar paint the target as well. So firing on link contacts with SM-2's generally doesn't work. Make sure you are firing (have your FCR painting) the contact generated by the search radar, as both are necessary for the missile to work correctly.

Also, it is a well known short coming of the link that AI missile link contacts are not shared with humans. This is unfortunate and hopefully will be corrected in the future, as AI platforms share linked information on missiles freely as any other target class.

This is an unfortunate consequence of the fix in 3.00b for the FFG speed bug in 1.03b, the FFG is too sluggish and does not reach top speed under most conditions. This has been fixed for the full version of 1.03 and 3.00.

Thanks for the feedback! Keep it coming!

Cheers,
David

Understand, but that would invalidate the EMCON operating doctrine outright, if you advertise your presence, your a dead duck eventually, think its a major realism shortcoming right there Mr. Lutwolf, As i understand it, it isn't a byproduct of the MOD, or is it?

As I mentioned, if it is designed to be able to work linked, it doesn't work, if it isn't, it should not give you the option to fire, you can't have your cake and eat it too, capisce?

[LuftWolf]

The SM-2 is a Semi-Active homing missile, meaning that it needs illumination from the firing (or some other) platform.

On FFG's and all other ships that I know of which use SA missiles the search radar and fire control radars both need to be used to guide a missile, the search to direct the FC and the FC to direct the missile.

Ships run in EMCOM, but once they are fired on, they switch their radars on darn quick because an incoming vampire means you have been detected anyway and the radars are now needed to detect incoming missiles and direct counterfire.

This aspect of the SM-2 is exactly the same with or without the mod and is an accurate represenation of real life semi active missile operation, in regards to the issues you are talking about.

In terms of being able to assign an FCR to the link contact, there are many ways to screw up the commands in station in DW, its your job as the operator to avoid those kinds of errors. There are some safety measures built in but not many.

[Hobnail]

Originally Posted by Hatch

Testing FFG7

I fired and the SM -2 went in the totally opposite direction of its target, if the Helo’s radar link can not be used to fire the SM-2, then it should not give you the “Fire� option enabled as it did, if on the contrary it can be used to acquire and assign targets to the SM-2, something is not working properly. Also, the Helo’s radar did not paint the incoming Vampires, only the TU-22M.

Yes...this is a quirk I've noticed in all versions of DW since release and it's most apparent to me when playing this particular mission. Maddening watching the SM-2 fly a semi-circle to come back around to hit the vampire.

As to using REMRO, I wouldnt expect what is primarily a surface-search radar to pick up mach 3+ AS-6. As to using it's data to fire SM-2, all the FFG requires to fire the missiles is to have position data accurate enough to slave one of the tracking radars on the required contact. Once the illuminator acquires the target, it's slaved to it by it's own tracking.

[LuftWolf]

I'm fairly certain that the fire control radars on most ships need the search radars to function... :hmm:

[Hatch]

Ok, i get your point, thank you for the explanation, I was under the assumption that the helo's radar was also an air search radar, not just surface, which makes perfect sense.

Thanks

Hatch

[Mau]

Ok, this is the way it would be supposed to work.

A Semi active homing missile needs CWI from the FC radar to be guided to the target. The reflection of the CWI on the target will come back to the nose of the missile.

So first thing (and I am talking about the OHP guided system here and not a Spy radar associated with it - so no AEGIS system that will give a PIP - Point of intercept - and then radiate only on the terminal phase of the missile) is that the ship needs to track the seaskimming missile to handover it to the FC Radar. Without this you will be very lucky to have your FC to have a lock on it since the beam is very narrow. For a sea skimming the best radar is the surface search since the missile is very low above the water. That is why without radar (air or surface) you should not be able to lock on anything. In the game, you can have a lock (fire available) on a link track but good chance that it will miss or have some weird behavior. Even with the Air radar because the update of the track is less than the search one since the rotation of the antenna and the resolution is a lot less than a surface or an air-surface search radar, it would not be as good.

Once you have hooked a sea skimmer at fairly close range (inside 18NM), you should have a good track since it should have been handover to the surface search radar. Then the CWI should be right on the target.

As per the North Atlantic Convoy scenario, we are faced with a very very fast missile coming at us. In real life the only thing why this system would be able to deal with that threat (and in a very limited way) is because this AS-4 Kitchen is a high diver missile, so you see it from a very long distance. The Aircraft would not be able to fire it from 4000ft like in this scenario. In the game, the AS-4 is going right away to the waves top which is wrong and that is why once you detect it, it is mainly already too late.

That is explaining the weird behavior of the SM-2 (I think) for this. Why it is doing a semi-circle going in the opposite side before coming back, is the fact that the very small amount of time the Fire control solution has, makes it thing that the threat is coming so fast that by the time it's launch, it thinks that it will be passed (dead reckoning).

I am pretty sure that this weird behavior is not happening against a subsonic sea skimmer in the game (not that I remember of anyway), because the system has time to calculate.

And guess what, in real life a STIR FC against supersonic sea skimmer will have a really hard time (again I am not talking about AEGIS, which I can talk for a very long time).

But yes the game might have some little bugs as well.
If the persons who are creating scenario thinks about all those things, then the scenario will be realistic (until such time flight profile of the AS-4 willl be fix, or at least having the backfire firing from 10 000 ft minimum).

As of now for this scenario and using 1.03B and 3.0, as soon as you detect the EW of the AS-4, have a lot of chaff (and I mean chaff) away at short regular interval and aim for the last missile of the stream for the SM-2 so that the FC as a better calculation. It works very often because I did a lot of testing......

Hope this help
My 5 cents

Mau

[TLAM Strike]

I read the other day that the Tu-22M only carries 1 or in very rare cases 2 AS-4 missiles. I wonder if we should dumb down the Backfire...

[Hobnail]

I admit I've never seen a photo of the Tu-22M with KH-22 on the wing glove and centreline pylons at the same time.

Anyone?

[Mau]

Anyway, you will not find AS-4 anymore.
The Backfire has the AS-16 Kickback and can have up to ten (six in drum and 4 on pylones)

And yes, I don't remember seeing a picture with more than 1 AS-4. Those are massive!

[Hatch]

Ok, I noticed that the layers are now being created by the mission generator, or even manually created missions, at a depth oscillating between 950 and 1200 feet, i tried many missions, and that depth seemed to be consistent in all of them, didn't matter if it was sand bottom or rock bottom, no shallower layers were found.

But i guess you already knew this right?

Hatch