Penang harbor is located incorrectly

RSColonel_131st · 01-22-09, 01:09 PM

Hi Guys

I searched but couldn't find a topic, so here it goes:

According to Lawrence Pattersons book on the U-Boats in the Indian ocean, the Penang harbour used by the IJN and the german subs was not on the mainland (east side of the strait) but on the island west side of the strait, in today's Georgetown.

The harbor which the game is using is called "Butterworth" in the book and was in fact not used.

Something for a mod I guess.

BTW, the book also repeatly mentions the use of "Bachstelze" gyrocopter - would have been nice by the devs to include this, as it seemingly wasn't some unnecessary little gadget but rather a clever and usefull invention actually used on patrols even in late '44. In fact I was always wondering what the little wooden plattform aft of the conning tower on my IXD2 was for in game...

Dowly · 01-23-09, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSColonel_131st

BTW, the book also repeatly mentions the use of "Bachstelze" gyrocopter - would have been nice by the devs to include this, as it seemingly wasn't some unnecessary little gadget but rather a clever and usefull invention actually used on patrols even in late '44. In fact I was always wondering what the little wooden plattform aft of the conning tower on my IXD2 was for in game...

It was used, but not in numbers. Only few were used AFAIK and they became quickly useless as the threat from allied aircraft became higher.

RSColonel_131st · 01-23-09, 09:50 AM

This is not what the direct quotes from some sub captains in Patterson's Book say.

Kurt Freiwald of U181 is attributed to have written a report to BdU in August 1944, after his boat arrived in Penang, where he says that his "Bachstelze" was torn away on the first deploying during the transfer cruise due to "faulty repairs". Given that he sailed in April or May 1944, that means that as late as those dates the Fa330 was still used - singular mechanical problems not withstanding. The report as quoted in the book is from BdU documents themself, so the source should be out of question.

There's a second very interesting account from U862, Captain Heinrich Timm, who sailed on 3rd June 1944 from Narvik to the East after repairs, and used the "Bachstelze" to navigate in foggy weather (piloted by his ship's doctor, it was flown above the fog banks to help find the way into clear water while going trough the denmark strait).

At other points in the book it is written that the Bachstelze was NOT regulary used in the Atlantic for it's large radar signature, but much more suited to the Indian Ocean campaign. Especially before 1944, when radar and air threats were much lower there.

It is really surprising that most people seem to go by the wording from U-Boat.net or similar sources and argue that the Fa330 wasn't really used, yet there are accounts from "Monsun" captains who regularly deployed them. Gysae of U177 is said to have been the first captain to use the device in action, on his trip from France to Penang, deploying the thing on at least 30 occasions and ultimately with it's help sinking a greek Steamer on 5th August 1943.

"Only few were used" is insofar correct as there were only a handfull of IXD2 in the east over all. IXD2 in other Ops Areas wouldn't have used them for fear of their radar signature, and other boats in the East (like the IXC) did not have them.

But for what is simulated in game - an IXD2 in the Indian Ocean from Mid-1943 on, the Fa330 shouldn't be a rarity. It could be a fascinating addition to the german side, further highlighting differences between US and German submarine use.

Would be nice of someone picks this up for a mod.

JREX53 · 01-23-09, 11:09 AM

Someone has fixed the Penang Harbor location. Try Lurker's Operation Monsun.

Carotio · 01-23-09, 02:48 PM

Did a little Google search...

Images of Bachstelze Fa330:

Location to purchase some u-boat models including an IXd2 with the Bachstelze Fa330:
http://www.modelhobbies.co.uk/shop/m...ze-p-4370.html

LukeFF · 01-25-09, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carotio

Did a little Google search...

Images of Bachstelze Fa330:

There's an original also on display at the Udvar-Hazy Center in Washington, DC:

RSColonel_131st · 01-26-09, 06:01 AM

I really have no clue how this "kite-gyro" actually flew. How can a little horizontal airflow (10 knots...) over three rotor blades make them spin and lift 120kg?

Pablo · 01-26-09, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSColonel_131st

I really have no clue how this "kite-gyro" actually flew. How can a little horizontal airflow (10 knots...) over three rotor blades make them spin and lift 120kg?

Hi!

It is a "rotary-winged glider" and was towed behind the U-boat. The U-boat provided forward speed, and the wings provided lift through autorotation. You can read more about autorotation here.

Pablo

01-22-09, 01:09 PM	#1
RSColonel_131st Medic Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 164 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Penang harbor is located incorrectly Hi Guys I searched but couldn't find a topic, so here it goes: According to Lawrence Pattersons book on the U-Boats in the Indian ocean, the Penang harbour used by the IJN and the german subs was not on the mainland (east side of the strait) but on the island west side of the strait, in today's Georgetown. The harbor which the game is using is called "Butterworth" in the book and was in fact not used. Something for a mod I guess. BTW, the book also repeatly mentions the use of "Bachstelze" gyrocopter - would have been nice by the devs to include this, as it seemingly wasn't some unnecessary little gadget but rather a clever and usefull invention actually used on patrols even in late '44. In fact I was always wondering what the little wooden plattform aft of the conning tower on my IXD2 was for in game...

01-23-09, 11:09 AM	#4
JREX53 Frogman Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 300 Downloads: 353 Uploads: 13	Someone has fixed the Penang Harbor location. Try Lurker's Operation Monsun. __________________ Jim

01-23-09, 02:48 PM	#5
Carotio Mr. Bad Wolf Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Aabenraa, Denmark Posts: 1,488 Downloads: 47 Uploads: 0	Did a little Google search... Images of Bachstelze Fa330: Location to purchase some u-boat models including an IXd2 with the Bachstelze Fa330: http://www.modelhobbies.co.uk/shop/m...ze-p-4370.html __________________ Download my mods from SHMF Follow my photography here taler dansk, speak English, spreche Deutsch, parle français, forstår svenska/norsk, comprendo castellano

01-23-09, 09:50 AM	#3
RSColonel_131st Medic Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 164 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	This is not what the direct quotes from some sub captains in Patterson's Book say. Kurt Freiwald of U181 is attributed to have written a report to BdU in August 1944, after his boat arrived in Penang, where he says that his "Bachstelze" was torn away on the first deploying during the transfer cruise due to "faulty repairs". Given that he sailed in April or May 1944, that means that as late as those dates the Fa330 was still used - singular mechanical problems not withstanding. The report as quoted in the book is from BdU documents themself, so the source should be out of question. There's a second very interesting account from U862, Captain Heinrich Timm, who sailed on 3rd June 1944 from Narvik to the East after repairs, and used the "Bachstelze" to navigate in foggy weather (piloted by his ship's doctor, it was flown above the fog banks to help find the way into clear water while going trough the denmark strait). At other points in the book it is written that the Bachstelze was NOT regulary used in the Atlantic for it's large radar signature, but much more suited to the Indian Ocean campaign. Especially before 1944, when radar and air threats were much lower there. It is really surprising that most people seem to go by the wording from U-Boat.net or similar sources and argue that the Fa330 wasn't really used, yet there are accounts from "Monsun" captains who regularly deployed them. Gysae of U177 is said to have been the first captain to use the device in action, on his trip from France to Penang, deploying the thing on at least 30 occasions and ultimately with it's help sinking a greek Steamer on 5th August 1943. "Only few were used" is insofar correct as there were only a handfull of IXD2 in the east over all. IXD2 in other Ops Areas wouldn't have used them for fear of their radar signature, and other boats in the East (like the IXC) did not have them. But for what is simulated in game - an IXD2 in the Indian Ocean from Mid-1943 on, the Fa330 shouldn't be a rarity. It could be a fascinating addition to the german side, further highlighting differences between US and German submarine use. Would be nice of someone picks this up for a mod.

01-26-09, 06:01 AM	#7
RSColonel_131st Medic Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 164 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I really have no clue how this "kite-gyro" actually flew. How can a little horizontal airflow (10 knots...) over three rotor blades make them spin and lift 120kg?