WHY God - is there no decent Sailing Ship war game?!?!

[raymond6751]

I like all that I've seen and read. Can you heave to?

Can you give orders to follow a specific ship?

Can you order break off and avoid action?

Will there be fire, fire fighting, critical hits, exploding ships?

Can you tow a ship, pull a ship with a boat?

Is there drift?

If multiplayer, will there be hidden ship nationality & false flags?

Can you rescue crew from sinking ships?

Just my thoughts.

[bix]

heave to - yes. the sail/rudder physics should allow you to trim sail such that the forces are equalized.

follow ship - absolutely, works like a charm, though that would be the auto navigate mode. in manual, you would be responsible for said following.

fires/explosions - not sure what visual effects from damage will get into the june beta (prolly just some silly cartoon effects), but at this point i have not included critical hits in the combat results table. i do have raking hits, and i separate sail, deck, and hull hits based on where the ordnance intersects with the ship, and what type of shot it is. hope to have some actual combat screens sometime next week.

towing - had not thought about that. prolly not.

set and drift - yes, both are represented in the sailing physics

false flags - i have definitely thought about that, and i definitely want it, but nothing yet. that is a tough one. assuming just 2 player head-to-head, you "know" your ships, you select them and command them, so your opponent could hardly pass off one of theirs as one of yours. so the only way this could possible work is through "neutrals." but lets think about it! would be awesome.

crew rescue - well, i have no "people" so there is nobody fish out of the drink, but, that said, perhaps if one of your ships is disabled/destroyed in combat, you could send a ship to the wreckage and automatically pick up survivors. the survivors can then re-crew the rescue ship, an excellent way to maintain a full roster on board. during the rescue operation, the ship can not fight, and is kind of a sitting duck. that would be the risk when the player uses rescue to re-crew undermanned vessels. should be easy enough to code, and is a great tactical element. thanks! i'll see if i can get it in, but my feature list still looms large, and tick-tock, tick-tock, i am determined to get something in all your hands june 1st.

best,
bix
ps. gotta do some "money" work, so i might be radio silent for the next few days

[con20or]

All sonds great so far - would love to see a s/shot of the captains view.

[bix]

here's three. each ship has observation points you can toggle through. first there is typical 3rd person. remember your view on a ship is independent of its heading, so you can rotate your view to see the ship from all angles. check out the fps, yo! i have it locked at 60 and it maintains. here we have no fog/visibility, infinite distance. this will change soon.



second is topgallants, this is the view from the top of your tallest mast. again rotation is independent of heading. i hid the gui map for screenie joy



final shot here is the quarterdeck rigging. i have a quarterdeck camera too, but until the ships are made into nice models that i can occlude camera obstructions, quarterdeck will be disabled.



again, apologies for my crude graphics. it will improve post june.

best,
bix

[raymond6751]

Amazing work. Thanks.

My quesions/suggestions were general and not aimed at your June release.

Good stuff!

[bix]

your rescue suggestion adds such a great element to game-play (that i had not considered), and should be trivial to enable, such that i think it must be in the june release.

it is one of those perfect game dilemmas. i need more men to haul the yards, there is a wreck and my brothers are perishing. do i risk exposure to save men (and bring my ship to full muster)?

it will also add greatly if someday i work in rpg elements - the captain who rescues doomed men has a very loyal crew indeed.

bix

[con20or]

this is going to be alot of fun.

[bix]

yo,

it already is a lot of fun - hell, i've moved from "bilge rat" to "nub" (and con is now an engineer). so, what's a nub? i don't know this nautical term. i have been operating under the assumption that a midshipman is the lowest creature on earth.

thanks again con for shouting out on piratesahoy.
thanks again ray for the survivors.

okay, so i got a few rations sandbagged, i've traded weevils for rum. and i didn't do any money work today (no prob, i've been sandbagging). AND i've got no less than four actually valuable beta testers. wow!

in your opinion, what is the next tack?

your servant,
j.b.k. de sa

[tater]

Looks incredible. I'm super excited about this.

If the game will be for sale at some point, I'm more than happy to contribute in advance (crowd sourcing?).

You show in the one example different firing orders for the larboard and starboard sides. This is good, but very few ships could fight both sides at once. I presume there will be ROF adjustments for trying to do so?

In terms of the automatic navigation, how are you planning on dealing with headings to windward? A thought I had was that you could have a "set course" line (a sort of stretched rubber band from the ship) that would zig-zag to windward based on tack evolutions (or loop if wearing ship). Minimum being the time frame to evolve consecutive tacks (need to bring her back up to speed so she will make stays). Maximum a slider by the captain, I guess.

Fog of war... I watched the recent SHO dev video on the SS main page, and I'm not a fan of the vast amounts of information given players of most games. In terms of age of sail, what would make the most sense to think about from the start is that in any "map" or "admiral" view that is above the mast height that the ranges to enemies not be shown with absolute accuracy. Another good reason for your "inaccurate" ship sizes in that view. Have the actual position be in the ballpark of the ship representation, and only drown spot-on in first person views. Same would go for gunnery ranges. Have it be kind of gray as to when targets are in range instead of a line drawn on the water.

Views: I note that in your last view, even, the ships are all sitting on the water. Is the earth flat, or a sphere? Hull down, etc, will matter a lot as first visibility will be t'gallants or whatever poking up. This goes with the fog of war above, since you'll have only the best guess of the lookout as to type/heading/distance at the start.

Crew management will obviously be very important at some point, as crew levels is a lot of what determines how capable the ship is.

Regarding towing. In dead calm it might be useful (in a campaign type setting) to at least abstract this at some point. Another issue when land/shallows become important would be anchoring, as well as spring anchors. Heck, as long as I am throwing out ideas, warping as well. Clearly not for the initial game as you have stated it will start in open water for obvious reasons.

Ruse de guerre: Admittedly difficult with a head on head game. I'll throw out a few random ideas (hope you don't mind). AI ships as background at some point. Have ships following waypoints as part of a scenario. Fishing boats and other non-combatants. Some can be neutrals, others might belong to one side or another---but would not be playable by either player at first. So you are playing a RN unrated vessel looking for prizes or prey. There are ships in view near a coast. When you get near, some might hoist colors. At least one is an enemy player, but which one?

Neutrals will hoist their colors. Enemies and even friends will hoist various choices. Neutral, or possibly even enemy (hard to code the choice, but it might have to do with proximity units displaying enemy colors, and at some distance even recognition codes. At hailing distance (or if boarded?), the AI ships would show their "true colors" at the least. Once a ship is positively IDed, if friendly, the player can perhaps give it orders (suggestions? ). Note that depending on the scenario, some of the AI ships might well be warships that will either add to your force, or the enemy's.

In this way, other ships act as "terrain" where the player can then chose to mask his identity among other ships. Obviously if there are only 2 ships, then the other one is presumed the enemy But if 3, at least at distance, you might make a heading to intercept brig 1, when in fact brig 2 is the other player. Dunno...

[con20or]

I noticed my promotion earlier - only took me 7 years

I reckon a 'nub' is a 'noob'...they wash the midshipmens yfronts

No problem on the piratesahoy intel - they're a good bunch over there - and naval games like these are so few and far between that they have to be helped in any way possible. Your games are very different - theyre pirates, single ship, etc - yours has fleet tactics.

Im sold - think you have something really great in the works. Maybe a short vid?

[tater]

I notice you said the effect of waves on gunnery, this also can affect (for larger ships) which gun ports can even open. In addition, sailing vessels heel, so this affects gunnery on the windward and leeward sides differently (might make fire impossible on the leeward side since gun elevation is limited).

[con20or]

If i remember correctly this was implemented in AOS2, in the hornblower scenario - the Lydia was able to take on the larger Turkish ship because none of their lower gundeck could fire.

[raymond6751]

Good suggestions, guys. Many for later implimentation as the game matures.

Here's another one...damaged ships ordered to withdraw will proceed as best they can to friendly port. Some make it, can be repaired and return to service later.

Is this only intended as a multiplayer game?

Let's throw in shipbuilding in the background. Success in getting supply ships through, in battle, and in politics wins ability to build more ships.

Let us not have "quests" as in POTC and similar games. Let's have missions to carry out in freestyle, open world action. Approach the mission from your own perspective instead of scripted.

[bix]

i'm thrilled with this dialog. you all are hitting on all the topics near and dear to my heart. gonna work my way though all points as best i can, in reverse order of dispatch, if you please...

quests - nothing here is scripted. there is no quest, and you will never spend a minute talking to a stupid NPC. it is a scenario you work through in the manner you see fit. you have mission objectives, some you achieve, some you don't. so play it again. there is no "failure" there is only performance - how well did you do. in campaign mode, certain tactical objectives will be counterproductive to your long-term goals. not sure yet how that becomes a numerical system, but lets take the game notion of "clearing a map." on the tactical level, there are some things you don't want to "clear" at this moment in time, based on how you personally approach the game, the scenario objectives, and the campaign objectives. just like the minimap has "wrong" soundings, the scenarios will have objectives, or perhaps "opportunities" that directly conflict with the campaign objectives.

perhaps you have been issued orders from the admiralty, and you know darn well it is fool's mission. you do the best you can knowing you can never achieve the expectation. this is a setback to your advancement, oh well, life is a bitch. we are now talking about rpg elements, narrative elements that i think will really shine. and oddly, this particular genre is perfect for an incremental numeric narrative system.

ports - yes, damaged ships need refit, and you need to maintain ports and shipyards to do this. simple rpg elements like a captain's reputation can get a ship in and out of refit quicker.

in actuality, it was really difficult to sink a ship in combat, unless the thing caught fire. pummeling it with shot mostly just killed the ship's company through wood splinters. the thing is, wood floats. this brings up prizes and towing and the lot, but also brings up ships company.

tater mentioned it was rare to service both lar and star batteries. this is very true for an undermanned ship. often the gunnery crew would swap lar and star per salvo, or depending on the situation, man one or the other side. although i have no plans for visually representing "people" on the ship, crew roster is high on my list. why i was so thrilled with ray's idea about rescue. an important part of my combat damage system is the butcher's bill. hits to sail destroy sail and yardsmen. hits to deck mostly decimate command ability (and yes i want to put sharpshooting marines up the lubbers hole), and hits to hull effect seaworthyness and gunnery crews. so both crew and vessel are effected by combat.

more on gunnery - right now i must limit it to one gun deck. oh yes, soon enough your first rate 110 will be half useless because of the swell. but even with one deck, if you take close command of your gunnery, you will do better when you ensure they fire on the rise (you will shortly see the waves in-game. currently disabled for math testing, easier to understand the error if the surface is flat).

the AI can do it too, better than a human can actually, but i'm pretty sure i'm gonna make them bad at compensating for the roll, so as to give the human a reason to be there to fire the guns. at this point i'm pretty sure my AI can kick anybody's ass, it is just so much quicker, and so much better at math than us mere humans, and i'm not even letting the AI cheat! in terms of gunnery, the AI captain is a bad captain. he has not spent a coin of his own on powder, and to him, exercising the guns is just running them in and out on their yards. the human captain however has always ensured his crews worked with hot cannon.

a naval tactical situation has always really been a question of math. how fast can you load, how quick can you tack, you well can you estimate trajectory. this is where the crew roster really becomes important. it is the ship's company that determines any ship's true fighting ability.

more on rate of fire - lets just assume at the commencement of a scenario, all sides are equal. same guns, same ships, same crew (this will all change in campaign mode). if i focus on disabling crew and sail, rather than destroying the ship (the french tactic) i can gain a serious advantage. i reduce their rof, and/or reduce their mobility. on the other hand, if i focus on the total destruction of my enemy (the british tactic) i too can gain a significant advantage, and no ship is gonna jibe up my stern to fire the one volley that turns the tide. it is the fulcrum of the combat game-play, tempered by the objectives of the scenario. if, say, an important goal is to secure a port, that should influence which approach i lean towards. cant tell you which actually, that is what i want to find out. i want to play this game as much as i want to make it.

navigation - wearing, tacking, and jibing are handled in the sail physics. in auto mode, you care not. in manual, you must handle helm and trim on each mast when evolving the maneuver. you do not plot a course, you must make your own evolution when you feel it is time. this is another point where human intervention gains advantage. the AI finds waypoints to tack and wear to its intended goal, taking landmass, reefs, etc... into consideration. though darn good at it, it is not always the best course. in fact it always errs to safety, it must, because the AI can't be running your precious fleet to ground. dont forget the AI is working for you, as well as for the computer opponent.

hauling windward, or otherwise sailing in automode, pre-plans a course to the destination. the AI endeavors to make the final tack with wind abaft, assuming that the ship always desires to gain the weather gauge on its destination. this is not always the most direct approach. if the destination is "moving" eg another ship, it periodically re-plans its course. i grant several more points to the wind than is realistic for the period, it just must be for game-play. it is amazing how poorly these ships hauled windward, in some cases not more than a few points off their beam. i calculate as few evolutions as possible, given obstacles, because tacks and jibes where seriously exhausting maneuvers for the crew. again this is a point where a human can gain advantage over the AI. btw i could go on for ever on the topic of wind

fog of war - indeed gunnery range is fungible, and also influenced by wind. there will be no clear indication of your gunnery range, and indeed you will want to fire several ranging salvos prior to spitting out your broadside on anything greater than a pistol shot away.

damn i wish the world was round, but it is totally problematic in terms of game building. believe me, i've tried several times to make a game on a sphere. it would be so cool though to see a mast peek over the horizon.

at some point it will be a multi-player online game. for june i'm 99% sure i'll have head-2-head over a LAN. it works now, but sometimes the damn devices don't find each other. ugggh. the most boring kind of programming, not fit for man nor beast.

at any rate, i'm thrilled by all your enthusiasm.

best,
bix
ps. and yes i'll follow up with some vids soon, but not till i get some explosions in-game! right now it is all so "sanitized" - just numbers, no real human cost.

[tater]

For a campaign type game you'd want the ability to do cutting out missions (ship's boats into ports to take prizes). Clearly any troop actions could be abstracted. I have some board/miniatures games if you'd like a look to see what they did in terms of success percentages, etc. One thing about old-school wargames (I'm pushing 50, so I grok old-school games pretty well ), is that they often produce realistic outcomes. Simulation can get lost in the details (not seeing the proverbial forest for the trees) in many cases, since a pure simulation only produces realistic outcomes if enough is actually simulated.

SH shows this in spades. every one of us is a better virtual skipper than any RL sub commander. It's not the old notion that "we have tons more practice." It's that the sim isn't good enough, if it was, it would be harder, and we'd die more. Sometimes a die roll is good enough.

Damage models in terms of lost/wounded crew will be non-trivial to calculate in a pure sim mode.