Real Submarine Technology & History Q&A

[LukeFF]

Thanks, Dave. I've had both of those sites linked for some time and have found them to be a lot of help in my research. Another good one is this one:

http://naval-reference.net/

(Site seems to be down at the moment)

Anyways, that was my hunch as to why MoMM was created (the rapid expansion of diesel use), and it makes perfect sense. The boats where I see a full complement of MMs are almost all in the first months of the war (such as Shark and S-26). Oddly, the Archerfish lists two MMs (one a CPO, the other a 1C) for her first patrol in December 1943! However, that was definitely a rare instance, since all the contemporary rosters at that time show a full list of MoMMs.

Where did you find the crew lists for the Barb?

Also, for the submarine force, in what types of duties were Firemen trained? I.e., was it more MM or MoMM-focused?

[DaveyJ576]

Originally Posted by LukeFF

Where did you find the crew lists for the Barb?

Also, for the submarine force, in what types of duties were Firemen trained? I.e., was it more MM or MoMM-focused?

The sailing lists for Barb came from Gene Fluckey's outstanding book Thunder Below. If you haven't read this book yet, do so.

The term Fireman is probably the most misunderstood term in the Navy as it has virtually nothing to do with putting out fires. Firemen are the non-rated assistants to engineering department petty officers. They are the engineering equivalent of Seamen. The term started because they were the sailors that maintained the coal fires under the boilers in the old steam ships. This was the worst duty on the ship and was given to the most junior personnel in the engineering department. As the years passed, the non-rated Firemen could work for any of the engineering divisions including Auxiliaries, Electrical, Main Propulsion, etc. Firemen could chose a specific rate to train in and would be called "Strikers". After a period of time, usually about a year, if they could show proficiency in their chosen rate and could pass a written examination, they could be advanced to 3rd Class Petty officer (i.e. MoMM3c, EM3c, etc.). They would also sometimes be sent to formal Navy training schools prior to advancement.

[LukeFF]

Thanks as always, Dave!

Another one for you: I've read the three oldest ratings still in existence from the original 1797 rating system are Gunner's Mate, Boatswain's Mate, and Quartermaster. Is that true?

[DaveyJ576]

Originally Posted by LukeFF

Another one for you: I've read the three oldest ratings still in existence from the original 1797 rating system are Gunner's Mate, Boatswain's Mate, and Quartermaster. Is that true?

Yes, for the most part. There is actually quite a bit of seemingly conflicting info out there on this subject. It is true that these job titles for enlisted sailors existed as early as 1797. However, there was no rank structure to go along with them. The rating system was formalized in 1885 and included these rates along with Carpenter's Mate, Machinist, and Painter (among others). 1885 is considered the start of the system that was in place in WWII and that continues to this day.

Petty Officers have been around since the beginning of the Navy. However, the formal organization of enlisted ranks is generally traced to 1853, when they were established by Navy Regulations. Strangely, an insignia for petty officers existed as early as 1841. The rank/rate insignia as we know it today (eagle, rating badge, and rank chevrons) was first established in 1885 at the same time that the rating system was formalized. The rank of Chief Petty Officer was formally established on April 1st, 1893.

[DaveyJ576]

In the course of these posts, I have thrown out quite a few terms that at times can be confusing. I will try to explain the ones that seem to raise the most questions.

Conning Tower - In the USN fleet boats, the term conning tower officially only describes the horizontal cylinder that sits directly above the control room and contains the TDC, sonar and radar displays, periscopes, and helm. This cylinder is actually a separate pressure hull and is rated to the same depth as the main pressure hull. See the boat on the left in this picture: http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/0851602.jpg

Conning Tower Fairwater (or just Fairwater, for short) - A metal framework is erected around the conning tower and is attached to the pressure hull. Metal plating is attached (curiously usually by rivets) to the framework and this plating smoothes the hydrodynamic flow of water around the conning tower, reducing drag. The area inside the plating is free flooding and full of water when the boat is submerged. In the original design, the fairwater was quite massive and provided for the sheltered navigation bridge at the forward top end, the open bridge just aft, and the "bathtub" that surrounded the "cigarette deck" aft of the periscopes. Underneath the cigarette deck the fairwater enclosed the Main Air Induction Valve, a very large, mushroom shaped intake valve that fed air to the main engines. During the war, all of this flat plating became a visual liability and large portions of it were cut away, eliminating the navigation bridge and the bathtub and conveniently forming two gun decks for AA weapons. Late Gato class boats and all of the Balao and Tench class boats were built with a reduced size fairwater from the start. See http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/0821514.jpg

http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/0822415.jpg

http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/0836505.jpg

Periscope shears - The submarine's two periscopes protruded from the top of the conning tower and the structure that supported them is called the shears. Most of the fleet boats through the Gato class had three I-beams running vertically alongside the conning tower, just aft of the bridge. At the level of the bridge, these beams turned 90 degrees inward and met in the center. These beams formed the primary supports for the periscopes and other masts. Attached to the tops of these beams were additional supports for the sheathing tubes that supported the scopes as they were raised or lowered. All of this structure together is called the periscope shears. Once the metal plating was cut down in an effort to reduce the sub's silhouette, the three I-beams that supported the shears were exposed aft of the bridge. These looked like the supports of an old covered wagon and thus came to be called "covered wagon ribs". This area on either side of the shears also made for perfect lookout platforms. The later Balao and Tench class boats had a completely redesigned fairwater and shears structure that was much less massive and eliminated the covered wagon rigs altogether, replacing them with a downward flaired support structure just aft of the bridge. The shears also provided anchoring points for communications antennas and the later radar masts. For examples, see the above photos.

Superstructure - This is the metal frame and plating structure built on top of the rounded pressure hull. It provides a ship-like hull for surface steaming, enclosed all the ballast tank vents and air induction piping, and forms the main deck. External to the pressure hull, the entire superstructure (except for the bow buoyancy tank) is free flooding and is completely full of water when submerged. See http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/0823722.jpg

[Pvt. Public]

how do modern submarines air supply systems work? more specifically the breathing air for the crew. all i really know is that it uses electrolysis on seawater to get the oxygen. but how do they deal with the hydrogen produced? and once it gets used up and is then C02 how do they expel it? all without making bubbles.

[JREX53]

Originally Posted by Pvt. Public

how do modern submarines air supply systems work? more specifically the breathing air for the crew. all i really know is that it uses electrolysis on seawater to get the oxygen. but how do they deal with the hydrogen produced? and once it gets used up and is then C02 how do they expel it? all without making bubbles.

Pvt. Public,

On modern submarines they have a piece of equipment called an Oxygen Generator. It used electrolysis but the liquid used was Potassium hydroxide, the hydrogen is pumped overboard via a seawater connection that was used for cooling water. The oxygen is saved in Oxygen Cylinders.

To take care of the CO2, they use a piece of equipment called CO2 Scrubber, it sucks atmospheric air, runs the air through sodium hydroxide which separates the oxygen from the air and the hydrogen is pumped overboard via a seawater connection. The oxygen is then release back into the submarine atmosphere.

[Platapus]

During WWII what was the policy of men smoking?

Was smoking allowed in all compartments?

Was smoking permitted pretty much all time with few exceptions or the other way around?

[Aramike]

This is honestly one of my favorite threads in the Radio Room. Kudos to all who have participated.

Now, my question: has there ever been an instance of a sub diving while the deck hatches were accidently left open? If so, what was the result?

If not, what would likely be the result?

Thanks for the reply!

[DaveyJ576]

Originally Posted by Aramike

Now, my question: has there ever been an instance of a sub diving while the deck hatches were accidently left open? If so, what was the result?

If not, what would likely be the result?

Thanks for the reply!

Aramike,

To my knowledge, this type of event has not happened in the USN. The closest we ever came to it was the incident with the USS Squalus (SS-192). She dove with the Main Air Induction Valve for the diesels partially open, even though it indicated shut. It flooded the aft half of the boat and she sank to the bottom.

All deck hatches are equipped with an electric switch that sends a signal to the indicator board in the control room when the hatch is shut. This gives the personnel in the control room an instant reference as to the watertight status of the boat. A quick glance at the board will tell you the status of the hatches: green light - shut, red light - open. Once the diving alarm is sounded, the operator at the air manifold will check the status of these indicator lights, and then bleed high pressure air into the boat. This is a backup check to the indicator lights. You raise the air pressure in the boat slightly and check to see if the pressure falls. If it does, something is still open and the dive is halted. If everything is okay, the operator will report to the diving officer, "Green board, pressure in the boat" and the dive continues.

Shutting all the deck hatches and dogging them down prior to diving is probably the most basic of operations performed on a submarine and thus is foremost on the mind of the crew. Because of this, it rarely happens. However, if it did there can only be one result: Disaster.

[DaveyJ576]

Originally Posted by Platapus

During WWII what was the policy of men smoking?

Was smoking allowed in all compartments?

Was smoking permitted pretty much all time with few exceptions or the other way around?

I can't specifically state what the Navy's policy was during WWII, but I can comment on the state of tobacco useage in the 1980's.

The policy was quite liberal and was long as you didn't leave a mess, few people cared. I remember standing many watches in the control room with a good friend of mine who was a chain smoker. He would light one smoke at the beginning of the 6 hour watch and smoke continuously from then on, but never pull out his lighter again. He would light the next cig off the butt of the last before it went out.

The only compartments where smoking was not allowed were berthing compartments. There also were certain evolutions where the "smoking lamp" (permission to smoke) was out. These included Battle Stations, loading or transfer of fuel, lube, or hydraulic oil, weapons handling, and any other situation were the captain would not permit it. On our boat, the topside watch was not allowed to smoke on watch while in port.

Again, I can not comment specifically on the WWII policy, but I would imagine that in the 1940's when smoking was hugely popular and completely socially acceptable the policy could not have been more restrictive than what it was in the 80's. The aft gun deck on the conning tower fairwater was commonly known as the Cigarette Deck and was a popular spot to come topside to smoke.

Today's USN is rapidly moving towards a smoke free environment. There is absolutely no smoking internal to the ship, and is permissible in one area only (usually the fantail). I had one CO who hated smoking and threatened numerous times to ban smoking on the ship completely if the smokers didn't keep the fantail squared away. As for submarines, they will usually have one small compartment designated for smoking and it will be permissible only during certain times.

[Stealhead]

I bet it was pretty lax in old days where they smoked I would assume that they did not smoke around things that could be set off by open flame. I know a pretty good story on the dangers of smoking on a B-17 laden flight line from my buddies grad pa. He was a navagiator on 17's and told us one that the enitre squadron was just sitting and waitng around their 17's for the order to get in and take off so all the men where just sitting relaxing as best they could pre-mission when some guy (I am sure there where others smoking as at least 60% of GIs smoked in those days) proceded to light his smoke though he was outside the then 100ft no smoking zone (oddly this only applied to the outside of an aircraft smoking in flight when the oxygen was not is use was fine then) but there was a cloud of vapor where he was standing which was in a large open area that split the two groups of parked planes. The spark of flame from the poor saps lighter set the gas vapor up luckly all the guys saw it and many guys beside the nearst B-17 took of thier jakects to attempt to wave them in the air in the hopes that that would move the gas vapors away from the planes to keep them all from being blown to kingdom come.Anyway according to gramps it worked or he said maybe all the vapor was just beside the unlucky smoker not like you are going just assume such when you sitting around several tons of explosives(the smoker did not get burned by the way not by fire anyway) but man they where lucky that it did not set of the fuel and bombs in just 1 B-17 theyd have done the Luftwaffe a favor.

[Platapus]

In the Navy, as everyone knows, Captain is both a position and a rank.

The MFWIC of the boat is called Captain regardless of his actual rank.

Let's take Lt Cmdr Smith. Lt Cmdr Smith, being assigned as the Honcho of the boat is addressed as Captian.

My question is when is Lt Cmdr Smith addressed as Captain and when is Lt Cmdr Smith addressed as Lt Cmdr Smith?

Is it only on the boat? Is he ever called Captain Smith on shore?

If so, how does the Navy disambiguate between Lt Cmdr Smith (O-4) and Captain Smith (O-6).

This question came to me while watching a movie.

I was watching Operation Pacific for the millionth time. There is a scene where Lt Cmdr Gifford (John Wayne) is talking to the Admiral. At the time, Lt Cmdr Gifford was the Captain of the USS Thunderfish. At one point the Admiral picks up the phone and contacts some logistic weenie.

The Admiral says, "Please arrange passage for Captain Gifford....."

Is this correct? Or should the Admiral refer to Gifford as Lt Cmdr Gifford?

How would the logistic weenie know that he was supposed to book travel for an O-4 and not an O-6 (I am assuming that the Navy is like the Air Force in that there is a "difference" between an O-4 and O-6 for such things)?

Bonus question: Are Admirals ever Captains? If so, are they also addressed as Captain or are they addressed as Admiral?

Why the hell couldn't the Navy pick some other title for the MFWIC?

[DaveyJ576]

Originally Posted by Platapus

In the Navy, as everyone knows, Captain is both a position and a rank.

The term "captain" can be applied to an officer of a lesser rank as an honorary title when that officer is the designated Commanding Officer (an official title) of a U.S. Navy vessel. The term is informal in nature and is generally used only aboard ship and in informal situations ashore. Even an officer of higher rank (like an admiral) will refer to the ship's CO as "Captain" when aboard the ship.

In all other situations, afloat or ahore, especially in any official correspondence, he would be refered to as "Lt. Cmdr Dudley W. Morton, USN, Commanding Officer, USS Wahoo (SS-238)".

An officer of the rank of Captain (O-6) is always refered to as Captain at all times, regardless of his status as Commanding Officer.

The passage by the Admiral in the movie would have been incorrect. In that particular circumstance Wayne's character should have been refered to as Lieutenent Commander.

It would be exceedingly rare for an Admiral to be a Commanding Officer of a single vessel. However, if he was his official title would be Commanding Officer, but he would always be refered to as Admiral, never "Captain".

BTW, the term "skipper" is very, very informal in nature and would NEVER be used in any situation that required any sort of formality. The only place you might hear it off the boat would be at a backyard BBQ or a bar. I had one CO that hated the term and absolutely did not want to hear it. My present CO is actually an O-6 Captain and doesn't mind the term at all. Whether or not the crew uses the term is totally up to the man in charge.

[Platapus]

Much thanks for the clear answers.