Help with radar escort tactics on full realism. (SH3 GWX)

predattak · 03-24-24, 03:06 AM

So.. it's March 1941 and everybody and their mother has radar.
At first i thought..well it's march.. maybe only some convoys have it but no, all convoys have at least one radar escort.(in most cases 3 out of 4 escorts have it)
They see me through the most horrible weather out there in the middle of the night giant storm (full sh*t show) they come at me perfectly and hunt me down. Every time.
I have to keep at least 18 Km range from the convoys if i don't want to be seen.

How do i even approach convoys without being detected?
How do i get an accurate course of the convoy if i can't go close enough to at least spot the damn smokes? 4 bearing method doesn't give accurate results because the convoy sounds are everywhere.
Tactics would be great since i'm quite new to this.
The more the better!

Hooston · 03-24-24, 05:34 AM

Historically March 1941 is a bit early for effective radar on small escorts, you should be looking at Autumn 1941 (see very good article on wikipedia). These early radars should only detect you out to about 4km on a good day. The radars improved rapidly but surfaced night attack only became completely impossible in May 1943.
I've switched to NYGM from GWX, and it's too much pfaff to look at the GWX campaign files on SH3 editor. However I think you are probably not seeing radar detection. The ship models may have the antennas but that does not necessarily mean the game is using them. The escort AI regularly charges out of formation for a few km and returns, which can look like detection. Try observing your own crew on the bridge - are they crouching down and looking worried? Has the maximum time compression suddenly dropped?
If you are OK with slight cheating you can lock on to targets that are way outside visual detection range by tracking across the suspect bearing while spamming the L key. The crew then report range and bearing for a few minutes and you can even browse the locked target with the . and , keys.
Initially the same profile reducing measures as used against visual detection should be OK. When radar starts working properly you have to start behaving like a submarine and diving at first contact then mostly using the hydrophone. This means you lose mobility and are going to struggle to get into position, which is how it worked in real life. Expect to die by 1944. Which is also realistic.
Wolfpack345 took a type IX career well into 1944 on Youtube, try looking at that for clues.

Rebel · 03-25-24, 11:21 AM

been playing 1939 , at 1oo% . Thank you for the information,

Hooston · 03-25-24, 05:10 PM

I've done some more digging. The VHF type 286 radar was based on the airborne ASV II radar and was fitted to some escorts from 1940. Early models of this radar did not even have a moveable antenna and it has been described as not very useful against uboats. However HMS Vanoc managed to use it in sinking U100 on a dark night in March 1941.

This radar will be detected by the Metox detector when your boat gets that equipment.

The much better type 271 centimetric radar was rolled out in quantity from late 1941 historically. As with the type 286, this model was progressively improved as time went on. This radar will not show up on Metox.

You can see when each type of radar appears in game by reading the text file [SH3 folder]/data/Sea/[ship type]/[ship type].sns The problem with this is that all ships of a given type get upgraded radar on the same date. So it could indeed be that centimetric radar gets rolled out unrealistically early depending on the exact mods loaded. You can also edit introduction dates yourself...

In my flavour of NYGM a lot of escorts seem to get type 286 radar in late 1940 or early 1941 but then do not receive centimetric type 271 until early 1943. So life is easy for me

Rebel · 03-25-24, 05:50 PM

hope I live in this game to 1941 playing at 100% . Trying to follow the printed maps has been difficult.

often times I have not given myself enough room to pass by land, with various degrees of damage at times fatal

, back to the beginning and start over again

Hooston · 03-25-24, 06:27 PM

Follow the old timers' advice and do not use time compression >256. Things jump out at you before the game can react. Close to your home port be even more careful, there are lots of "friendly" ships to bump into. Do not bother with the Kiel Canal!
Oh, and in GWX the Tommies have planted some mines to the east of Heligoland.
Lastly, do not be too worried about 100% realism. The game cannot do it, and you cannot properly do the jobs of the entire crew. The Allies will get you before the war ends, so find a level you are happy with and have fun.

predattak · 03-26-24, 05:15 AM

Thank you for looking into it, i will take a look inside the .sns files to see what's going on and i agree 200% with the time compression.
Once i was running at 512x and by the time the crew saw the ship.. it almost rammed us. On clear weather no fog or anything else.
The downside of the low numbers on time compression is of course it takes AGES to move from point A to point B especially if you do it at 10 Kts so i guess i'll just have to be careful and lower it around predicted hotspots.

Rebel · 03-31-24, 02:49 PM

playing 100%. All the boxes are checked

03-24-24, 03:06 AM	#1
predattak Nub Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 3 Downloads: 33 Uploads: 0	Help with radar escort tactics on full realism. (SH3 GWX) So.. it's March 1941 and everybody and their mother has radar. At first i thought..well it's march.. maybe only some convoys have it but no, all convoys have at least one radar escort.(in most cases 3 out of 4 escorts have it) They see me through the most horrible weather out there in the middle of the night giant storm (full sh*t show) they come at me perfectly and hunt me down. Every time. I have to keep at least 18 Km range from the convoys if i don't want to be seen. How do i even approach convoys without being detected? How do i get an accurate course of the convoy if i can't go close enough to at least spot the damn smokes? 4 bearing method doesn't give accurate results because the convoy sounds are everywhere. Tactics would be great since i'm quite new to this. The more the better!

03-24-24, 05:34 AM	#2
Hooston Soundman Join Date: Jun 2020 Posts: 143 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	Are you sure? Historically March 1941 is a bit early for effective radar on small escorts, you should be looking at Autumn 1941 (see very good article on wikipedia). These early radars should only detect you out to about 4km on a good day. The radars improved rapidly but surfaced night attack only became completely impossible in May 1943. I've switched to NYGM from GWX, and it's too much pfaff to look at the GWX campaign files on SH3 editor. However I think you are probably not seeing radar detection. The ship models may have the antennas but that does not necessarily mean the game is using them. The escort AI regularly charges out of formation for a few km and returns, which can look like detection. Try observing your own crew on the bridge - are they crouching down and looking worried? Has the maximum time compression suddenly dropped? If you are OK with slight cheating you can lock on to targets that are way outside visual detection range by tracking across the suspect bearing while spamming the L key. The crew then report range and bearing for a few minutes and you can even browse the locked target with the . and , keys. Initially the same profile reducing measures as used against visual detection should be OK. When radar starts working properly you have to start behaving like a submarine and diving at first contact then mostly using the hydrophone. This means you lose mobility and are going to struggle to get into position, which is how it worked in real life. Expect to die by 1944. Which is also realistic. Wolfpack345 took a type IX career well into 1944 on Youtube, try looking at that for clues. Last edited by Hooston; 03-24-24 at 12:46 PM.

03-25-24, 11:21 AM	#3
Rebel Machinist's Mate Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 124 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 0	also playing career been playing 1939 , at 1oo% . Thank you for the information, __________________

03-25-24, 05:10 PM	#4
Hooston Soundman Join Date: Jun 2020 Posts: 143 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	VHF radars vs centimetric radar vs game mods I've done some more digging. The VHF type 286 radar was based on the airborne ASV II radar and was fitted to some escorts from 1940. Early models of this radar did not even have a moveable antenna and it has been described as not very useful against uboats. However HMS Vanoc managed to use it in sinking U100 on a dark night in March 1941. This radar will be detected by the Metox detector when your boat gets that equipment. The much better type 271 centimetric radar was rolled out in quantity from late 1941 historically. As with the type 286, this model was progressively improved as time went on. This radar will not show up on Metox. You can see when each type of radar appears in game by reading the text file [SH3 folder]/data/Sea/[ship type]/[ship type].sns The problem with this is that all ships of a given type get upgraded radar on the same date. So it could indeed be that centimetric radar gets rolled out unrealistically early depending on the exact mods loaded. You can also edit introduction dates yourself... In my flavour of NYGM a lot of escorts seem to get type 286 radar in late 1940 or early 1941 but then do not receive centimetric type 271 until early 1943. So life is easy for me Last edited by Hooston; 03-25-24 at 05:55 PM.

03-25-24, 05:50 PM	#5
Rebel Machinist's Mate Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 124 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 0	career at hundred percent hope I live in this game to 1941 playing at 100% . Trying to follow the printed maps has been difficult. often times I have not given myself enough room to pass by land, with various degrees of damage at times fatal, back to the beginning and start over again __________________

03-25-24, 06:27 PM	#6
Hooston Soundman Join Date: Jun 2020 Posts: 143 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	A compressed life is a short one Follow the old timers' advice and do not use time compression >256. Things jump out at you before the game can react. Close to your home port be even more careful, there are lots of "friendly" ships to bump into. Do not bother with the Kiel Canal! Oh, and in GWX the Tommies have planted some mines to the east of Heligoland. Lastly, do not be too worried about 100% realism. The game cannot do it, and you cannot properly do the jobs of the entire crew. The Allies will get you before the war ends, so find a level you are happy with and have fun.

03-26-24, 05:15 AM	#7
predattak Nub Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 3 Downloads: 33 Uploads: 0	Thank you for looking into it, i will take a look inside the .sns files to see what's going on and i agree 200% with the time compression. Once i was running at 512x and by the time the crew saw the ship.. it almost rammed us. On clear weather no fog or anything else. The downside of the low numbers on time compression is of course it takes AGES to move from point A to point B especially if you do it at 10 Kts so i guess i'll just have to be careful and lower it around predicted hotspots.

03-31-24, 02:49 PM	#8
Rebel Machinist's Mate Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 124 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 0	I asked the question playing 100%. All the boxes are checked __________________