Question about Type VII ballast tanks

[Onkel Neal]

So, we are deciding to model three discrete sets of ballast tanks:
MBT #2
MBT #4
Negative tanks

Sure, we could include all the tanks, including trim and torpedo compensating tanks but we only have 4 players (not a real human crew of 48), so it makes sense to design the game so that 3 or 4 guys can manage it without this activity becoming a burden that takes away from the gameplay. You know, finding a smart balance so that the players have some procedural activity without turning this into real work.

Here's the current crash dive game procedure:

1. Order: "Alarm!" Alarm bell activated by Chief.
2. Chief switches from diesel to electric motors, then orders ahead flank.
3. Captain closes voice tube on the bridge, descends into conning tower.
4. Exec takes a depth sounding, reports depth under keel.
5. Exec marks on chart where boat’s location is at the start of the dive.
6. Captain closes conning tower hatch, says “Conning tower hatch is closed"
7. Chief silences alarm bell.
8. Chief sets dive planes to forward hard down.
9. Captain orders “Flood”
10. Chief opens the MBT #4 vent valves allowing seawater in the main ballast tanks.
11. Exec opens the MBT #2 vent valves allowing seawater in the main ballast tanks.
12. Chief opens the Negative vent valve allowing seawater in the negative tank.
13. Captain sets depth with order “Go to depth, xx meters.” (At the front usually to 80 meters)
14. Once the down angle indicator indicates the boat has a down angle, hold: 8 to 15°
15. Chief closes vent valve for negative tank and blows tank to control dive before desired depth is reached. After execution of the order "Flood" and the boat has a noticeable descending tendency, the negative buoyancy tanks are expressed (blown by compressed air), by the Chief, who will call out, “Express”. It is critical that the Chief perform the crash dive operation competently, otherwise the boat could dive out of control, below safe depth, or with a dangerous down angle.
16. The ordered depth is achieved by the Chief’s operation of the dive planes.
17. After the report of Chief: "Boat is at xx meters", the order always follows, Captain: "Close vents".
18. Chief and Exec closes MBT vents valve.
19. Exec checks bilge level and reports any leaks or problems, “No leaks detected, Herr Kaleun”.
20. Chief checks compressed air level and reports, “Compressed air at xx millibar, Herr Kaleun”.
21. Captain orders new speed, course as necessary.
22. Chief reports battery status, “Both batteries at xxxx amps, Herr Kaleun”.
23. Sonar reports any contacts.

[PL_Andrev]

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

Here's the current crash dive game procedure:

1. Order: "Alarm!" Alarm bell activated by Chief.
2. Chief switches from diesel to electric motors, then orders ahead flank.
3. Captain closes voice tube on the bridge, descends into conning tower.
4. Exec takes a depth sounding, reports depth under keel.
5. Exec marks on chart where boat’s location is at the start of the dive.
6. Captain closes conning tower hatch, says “Conning tower hatch is closed"
7. Chief silences alarm bell.
8. Chief sets dive planes to forward hard down.
9. Captain orders “Flood”
10. Chief opens the MBT #4 vent valves allowing seawater in the main ballast tanks.
11. Exec opens the MBT #2 vent valves allowing seawater in the main ballast tanks.
12. Chief opens the Negative vent valve allowing seawater in the negative tank.
13. Captain sets depth with order “Go to depth, xx meters.” (At the front usually to 80 meters)
14. Once the down angle indicator indicates the boat has a down angle, hold: 8 to 15°
15. Chief closes vent valve for negative tank and blows tank to control dive before desired depth is reached. After execution of the order "Flood" and the boat has a noticeable descending tendency, the negative buoyancy tanks are expressed (blown by compressed air), by the Chief, who will call out, “Express”. It is critical that the Chief perform the crash dive operation competently, otherwise the boat could dive out of control, below safe depth, or with a dangerous down angle.
16. The ordered depth is achieved by the Chief’s operation of the dive planes.
17. After the report of Chief: "Boat is at xx meters", the order always follows, Captain: "Close vents".
18. Chief and Exec closes MBT vents valve.
19. Exec checks bilge level and reports any leaks or problems, “No leaks detected, Herr Kaleun”.
20. Chief checks compressed air level and reports, “Compressed air at xx millibar, Herr Kaleun”.
21. Captain orders new speed, course as necessary.
22. Chief reports battery status, “Both batteries at xxxx amps, Herr Kaleun”.
23. Sonar reports any contacts.

Sounds like a magic - hope it is "full-real" mode only...

[Onkel Neal]

I have no idea what you mean.

[Catfish]

I think this sounds too good to be true, this would be the first sub simulation ever to give you such control!

We err you cannot model each and every aspect of a rather complicated U-boat unless we had 50 trained online players, which will be unreasonable anyway, so this looks like a reasonable compromise

[Onkel Neal]

Thanks Kai. Yeah, any game requires some compromises to keep it manageable for the player(s), but at the same time include activities that are enjoyable, add to the gameplay, and are tactically necessary. We want to include more ship management activities, since we have 4 real people managing the boat instead of the solo single player; plus we think it will be more interesting that simply pressing the "D" key or other keyboard commands. This was the dev's original concept and one of the things about Marulken that got me so excited to work with them. They don't want Wolfpack to be another subsim in the mold of SH and most of the others before it. It's time to play a different way.

[makman94]

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

....They don't want Wolfpack to be another subsim in the mold of SH and most of the others before it. It's time to play a different way.

hello Neal,

i think that sh series (i mean sh3 ,sh4 and sh5) are very overestimated in regard to be considered as simulators. From sh1 till sh2 things were developed smoothly in sim parts but ,after that, sh3 (...sh4...sh5) brought nothing new on sim development.
With sh3 they presented additionally on sh2 : a)some nice 3d graphics (thats ok) , b) a crew 'management' system (which is non interesting part for a simulator and the devs themselfs 'admited' that by making it automatic in sh4) and c) -and most interesting feature- the dynamic campaign.Which campaign proved not so 'dynamic' becuase of the repetation of known sunk ships or the randomness of ships following allways the same route from the same startpoints. This feature was really interesting but needed development,something that left unfinished to the next versions too.End result is that campaign left half 'dynamic' and were no any development to the only (imo) new interesting feature that sh3 presented.
On the other hand in sh3 ,sim elements that were allready built in sh2 vanished ,things like the target's dial heading,the torpedo's run time dial , the impact angle dial (which reappeard in sh4) or the elevation degrees scale in scopes and they added nothing new.
From my point of view,the point that 'saved' these 'simulators' all these years is exactly the fact that they were very easily moddable and people loved that.

For these been said and from what i am reading from subsimers all these years ,their deep desire (and mine) is a pure sub simulator.We never had that (after sh2) and next sh versions failed to deliver. i don't believe that anyone really wants one more reproduce of sh series as you wrote in your message. One more thing that history show is that 3d graphics is not making the trick anymore so the gameplay is what must be the top priority. ( graphics can be up leveled any time later)

I agree with you that it is time to play a different way but by 'different' i mean that it is time to play (at this life) a real sub simulator.That is what is really missing ,we don't have it all these years so it is wrong to say that we had it with sh3,4,5 becuase we didn't.

Don't take me wrong, i am not shooting the project here.On the contrary,i really like the project and some of its features (i have written about it on some other of my posts) , i am just putting my thoughts for a constructive (future?) development that i believe will be a real success.

Closing my message and resuming it , i would suggest to focus on three things (with that order): 1. sim elements , 2. gameplay and 3. as possible it can be...moddable.
3D Graphics can wait and can be done any time later,allready they are at an ''acceptable'' level.

ps: ''Danger from the Deep'' were on a good road and it was really sad that they discard it. Atmospheric and focused

all the best to the efforts for a making a really good game

[mambo]

First; awesome sim, congratulations and about how to operate ballast tanks, looking at the diagrams, I think: handwheel on the stern bulkhead of the control room was for ballast tank no 1 vent valves and handwheel on the forward bulkhead of the control room was for ballast tank no 5 vent valves. The levers controlling vents of both chambers of the ballast tank no. 3 starboard and port were above in the control room( and maybe no.2 and 4) so in Wolfpack we operate no 1, no 5 and negative.

[PL_Andrev]

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

I have no idea what you mean.

#1. A lot of orders, included criticals (closing voicetube / tower hatch).
I'm afraid to ask: what with singleplayer / 2-players procedure of crash diving?

#2. Remembering this scene of Duke Nukem 3D (1996)...


Will we able to close toilet valve after using it to prevent fate like U-1206?

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by PL_Andrev

[...] Will we able to close toilet valve after using it to prevent fate like U-1206?

Yes, and there will be an olfactorial smell generator to be plugged into the USB port, for immersion. Dial-a-shtink.

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by PL_Andrev

Will we able to close toilet valve after using it to prevent fate like U-1206?

Originally Posted by Catfish

Yes, and there will be an olfactorial smell generator to be plugged into the USB port, for immersion. Dial-a-shtink.

I thought this was a 'realischtiK' game development! Somewhere is a photo (Hans Goebeler's book?)

of a US Navy chief emptying the communal Engineroom steel can prior to towing (no one else would do it)
a very large two-handled affair used aboard the captured U-505. Now that's reality! Any one with access to the photo please help

(<thnx Firefighter)

[rentacow]

I present the Nosulus Rift:

http://nosulusrift.ubisoft.com/?lang=en-US

its real

[THE_MASK]

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

So, we are deciding to model three discrete sets of ballast tanks:
MBT #2
MBT #4
Negative tanks

Sure, we could include all the tanks, including trim and torpedo compensating tanks but we only have 4 players (not a real human crew of 48), so it makes sense to design the game so that 3 or 4 guys can manage it without this activity becoming a burden that takes away from the gameplay. You know, finding a smart balance so that the players have some procedural activity without turning this into real work.

Here's the current crash dive game procedure:

1. Order: "Alarm!" Alarm bell activated by Chief.
2. Chief switches from diesel to electric motors, then orders ahead flank.
3. Captain closes voice tube on the bridge, descends into conning tower.
4. Exec takes a depth sounding, reports depth under keel.
5. Exec marks on chart where boat’s location is at the start of the dive.
6. Captain closes conning tower hatch, says “Conning tower hatch is closed"
7. Chief silences alarm bell.
8. Chief sets dive planes to forward hard down.
9. Captain orders “Flood”
10. Chief opens the MBT #4 vent valves allowing seawater in the main ballast tanks.
11. Exec opens the MBT #2 vent valves allowing seawater in the main ballast tanks.
12. Chief opens the Negative vent valve allowing seawater in the negative tank.
13. Captain sets depth with order “Go to depth, xx meters.” (At the front usually to 80 meters)
14. Once the down angle indicator indicates the boat has a down angle, hold: 8 to 15°
15. Chief closes vent valve for negative tank and blows tank to control dive before desired depth is reached. After execution of the order "Flood" and the boat has a noticeable descending tendency, the negative buoyancy tanks are expressed (blown by compressed air), by the Chief, who will call out, “Express”. It is critical that the Chief perform the crash dive operation competently, otherwise the boat could dive out of control, below safe depth, or with a dangerous down angle.
16. The ordered depth is achieved by the Chief’s operation of the dive planes.
17. After the report of Chief: "Boat is at xx meters", the order always follows, Captain: "Close vents".
18. Chief and Exec closes MBT vents valve.
19. Exec checks bilge level and reports any leaks or problems, “No leaks detected, Herr Kaleun”.
20. Chief checks compressed air level and reports, “Compressed air at xx millibar, Herr Kaleun”.
21. Captain orders new speed, course as necessary.
22. Chief reports battery status, “Both batteries at xxxx amps, Herr Kaleun”.
23. Sonar reports any contacts.

EPIC

[THE_MASK]

Will there be something to do regarding loading torps ? 4 crew but 5 jobs etc . Which one do you leave out for the moment . I would hate to be stuck down the back the whole gametime with not much to do while in multiplayer . Maybe there could be an aft torpedo that can only be manually loaded from the rear compartment crew member . Maybe have some diesel engine maintenance or something . I would love to see the blue flames come out of the engine like in Das Boot .

[Jojojung]

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

So, we are deciding to model three discrete sets of ballast tanks:
MBT #2
MBT #4
Negative tanks

Sure, we could include all the tanks, including trim and torpedo compensating tanks but we only have 4 players (not a real human crew of 48), so it makes sense to design the game so that 3 or 4 guys can manage it without this activity becoming a burden that takes away from the gameplay. You know, finding a smart balance so that the players have some procedural activity without turning this into real work.

Here's the current crash dive game procedure:

1. Order: "Alarm!" Alarm bell activated by Chief.
2. Chief switches from diesel to electric motors, then orders ahead flank.
3. Captain closes voice tube on the bridge, descends into conning tower.
4. Exec takes a depth sounding, reports depth under keel.
5. Exec marks on chart where boat’s location is at the start of the dive.
6. Captain closes conning tower hatch, says “Conning tower hatch is closed"
7. Chief silences alarm bell.
8. Chief sets dive planes to forward hard down.
9. Captain orders “Flood”
10. Chief opens the MBT #4 vent valves allowing seawater in the main ballast tanks.
11. Exec opens the MBT #2 vent valves allowing seawater in the main ballast tanks.
12. Chief opens the Negative vent valve allowing seawater in the negative tank.
13. Captain sets depth with order “Go to depth, xx meters.” (At the front usually to 80 meters)
14. Once the down angle indicator indicates the boat has a down angle, hold: 8 to 15°
15. Chief closes vent valve for negative tank and blows tank to control dive before desired depth is reached. After execution of the order "Flood" and the boat has a noticeable descending tendency, the negative buoyancy tanks are expressed (blown by compressed air), by the Chief, who will call out, “Express”. It is critical that the Chief perform the crash dive operation competently, otherwise the boat could dive out of control, below safe depth, or with a dangerous down angle.
16. The ordered depth is achieved by the Chief’s operation of the dive planes.
17. After the report of Chief: "Boat is at xx meters", the order always follows, Captain: "Close vents".
18. Chief and Exec closes MBT vents valve.
19. Exec checks bilge level and reports any leaks or problems, “No leaks detected, Herr Kaleun”.
20. Chief checks compressed air level and reports, “Compressed air at xx millibar, Herr Kaleun”.
21. Captain orders new speed, course as necessary.
22. Chief reports battery status, “Both batteries at xxxx amps, Herr Kaleun”.
23. Sonar reports any contacts.

I think this might be the correct Diving procedure, but i think Point 12 is not correct. The so called "Untertriebszelle" is filled with seawater in an wartime Trip on surface.its is blow out when the bridge gets under the waterline. The "untertriebszelle" should allow a much quicker diving time.

That means that the small „untertriebszelle“ in Wolfpack should filled with seawater on surface at begin of the patrol, when the game get it right.

[Jojojung]

In a german type VIIC there are 5 different forms of ballast tanks with the correct german vocabulary:

1) Tauchzellen = MBT
2) Regelzellen = Regulation Tanks (own translation) for fitting the boat to different watertemperature, salinity, consumption of supplies etc.
3) Trimmzellen = Tanks to keep the horizontal diving position (to compensate the heavy wight of the diesel engines f.e.)
4) Untertriebszelle = crash dive Tank
5) Torpedoregelzelle = are filled immediatly when the torpedo gets out, to compensate the lost of wight and prevent a liftup of the bow

The diesel fuel was also stored in the saddle tanks outside. The fuel was swimming on the seawater in the saddletanks. When the fuel gets empty over the time, more and more seawater gets through the openings on the bottom of the saddletank and the boat gets heavier over the time. So the Regelzellen have to blow out more and more to hold the correct position.