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10-12-16, 06:33 AM | #1 |
Machinist's Mate
Join Date: Aug 2012
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Calculation tools on WWII subs
Hi all
This is more of a general question regarding WWII subs, but I couldn't find a place to put it. My mental arithmetic has never been great, so I usually use a calculator. However, obviously back in WWII they never had such luxuries. I'm thinking of when for example a skipper had to calculate things like the speed of a ship based on the known length and how long it takes the ships to cross the periscope crosshairs (i.e. length/time x 1.94). So, what did they use, did they just use a pen and paper or did they have some sort of tool (like a slide rule?)? TIA |
10-12-16, 07:00 AM | #2 |
Ocean Warrior
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Slide rule.
Specifically: http://maritime.org/doc/attackfinder/index.htm Also: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=106923 Any slide rule with a sin scale can be used, though. http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=112765
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"Never ask a World War II history buff for a 'final solution' to your problem!" |
10-12-16, 09:42 AM | #3 | |
Navy Seal
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That is just a gamey, made-up method with no plausibility whatever. Since it was never done no calculators were ever designed for it. It has two absolutely fatal errors. First, it guarantees a large percentage error in speed calculated due to the extremely short timing. The shorter the time between the two datum points the larger the error. It's difficult to conceive a method with more inherent error, calculating only over at single ship length. That alone disqualifies it from any consideration at all. But secondly, it (as does the American stadimeter method) absolutely requires proper identification of the target. During the war less than half the targets were identified properly, resulting in target length errors between plus and minus 100%! What does THAT do to your speed measurement? Yeah, we're accurate to within a factor of four! Ever wonder why American subs, with a technologically superior TDC had fewer hits per torpedo than the Germans? It was because the standard stadimeter method of shooting required target ID. The Germans didn't care about target ID because it was not part of the shooting process. American skippers, like Dick O'Kane, who used constant bearing techniques rather than conventional US tactics, also hit a much higher percentage of targets. Why? Target ID wasn't necessary.
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Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks, Slightly Subnuclear Mk 14 & Cutie, Slightly Subnuclear Deck Gun, EZPlot 2.0, TMOPlot, TMOKeys, SH4CMS Last edited by Rockin Robbins; 10-12-16 at 11:38 AM. |
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10-12-16, 10:03 AM | #4 | ||
Gefallen Engel U-666
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"BANJO" 101 (is-was) bby!
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http://maritime.org/doc/attackfinder/replica/iswas-sample.jpg The Germans had a similar one (image enlarges...from my 'Ma deuce' thread post #12) EDIT: Submarine Attack Course Finder Mark I Model 3, O.D. 453, 1922. This describes the circular slide rule commonly know as an “is-was” used to calculate an approach and attack by an submarine. Torpedo Angle Solver Mark VIII Operating Instructions, O.D. 3518, 1941. This describes the hand operated torpedo angle solver commonly called a “banjo”. It is used to calculate the gyro angle when the Torpedo Data Computer is not available
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"Only two things are infinite; The Universe and human squirrelyness; and I'm not too sure about the Universe" Last edited by Aktungbby; 10-12-16 at 10:12 AM. |
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10-12-16, 10:12 AM | #5 |
Machinist's Mate
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OK thanks guys, I think I'll stick to using my calculator for now though, just wondered what was used "back in the day".
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10-12-16, 11:44 AM | #6 | |
Navy Seal
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By the way, the banjo was used by most tracking parties on American fleet boats. One guy had the banjo, running the same problem that was in the TDC. If they didn't agree the sub didn't shoot. They started the targeting process all over. So it was used A LOT! But never to calculate speed based on target length by the wire. That calculation is entirely useless. If you calculate 8 knots as the speed using it, that actually means "some random speed between 4 and 16 knots." It's an entirely useless piece of information unless it's an excuse for laughing at it.
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Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks, Slightly Subnuclear Mk 14 & Cutie, Slightly Subnuclear Deck Gun, EZPlot 2.0, TMOPlot, TMOKeys, SH4CMS Last edited by Rockin Robbins; 10-12-16 at 11:57 AM. |
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10-12-16, 11:58 AM | #7 |
Pacific Thunder
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The real deal
Kim Ronhof designed one and it can still be downloaded, printed & the pieces cut out and assembled.
This picture below is from a PTC friend who volunteered at the museum and submarine in Wisconsin: http://www.wisconsinmaritime.org/the...nce/uss-cobia/ Happy Hunting!
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" Bless those who serve beneath the deep, Through lonely hours their vigil keep. May peace their mission ever be, Protect each one we ask of thee. Bless those at home who wait and pray, For their return by night and day." Last edited by aanker; 10-12-16 at 12:41 PM. |
10-12-16, 12:30 PM | #8 |
Navy Seal
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That's a bearing rate computer not used for deriving target speed based on target length. It must be used along with the bearing rate charts not even part of Silent Hunter 4.
Basically it estimates speed based on the change of bearing change per unit time. Just as a thought experiment, you can understand that a target moving at right angles to your viewing angle (AoB 90º), the further away from you it is, the slower the bearing changes. Now visualize an attack where you are at 90º from the target track but it is approaching from five miles away. At first the rate of bearing rate will be agonizingly slow, perhaps a degree in several minutes. But as it gets to a bearing of 350 or 10, depending on which direction it is coming from it will change one degree in a second or very few seconds. From the Submarine Torpedo Fire Control Manual: It was a very fussy and error prone procedure with lots of provisos in there which would warn the sensible to avoid such a procedure! Here's how you plot your data on the maneuvering board that Silent Hunter somehow totally left out of the game: And here's the bearing rate data form that also got left out of the Silent Hunter series: Regardless of what you understand or do not understand as a result of this tour of reality, none of this has any relationship to calculating target speed by timing the length by the wire. Maybe we could talk about using a Ouija board?
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Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks, Slightly Subnuclear Mk 14 & Cutie, Slightly Subnuclear Deck Gun, EZPlot 2.0, TMOPlot, TMOKeys, SH4CMS |
10-12-16, 12:44 PM | #9 |
Gefallen Engel U-666
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GADZOOKS! My mistake!I do recall reading, decades ago?, an account of WW II submarining involving use of the is-was but did not grasp it's backup to the TDC function.(Run Silent Run DEEP?) I completely overlooked the op's target length issue... http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=434901#post434901 http://www.gizmology.net/sliderules_mancomp.htm
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"Only two things are infinite; The Universe and human squirrelyness; and I'm not too sure about the Universe" |
10-12-16, 12:54 PM | #10 | |
Navy Seal
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Oh, yeah, you hit it right on the head. Ed Beach explained the use of the is-was in combat with the TDC in Dust on the Sea, the second book of his Run Silent Run Deep trilogy. What great books for learning how to run a boat! They go way beyond fiction to be required reading for World War II sub enthusiasts. They teach you to think like a sub commander.
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Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks, Slightly Subnuclear Mk 14 & Cutie, Slightly Subnuclear Deck Gun, EZPlot 2.0, TMOPlot, TMOKeys, SH4CMS |
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10-12-16, 01:22 PM | #11 | ||
Pacific Thunder
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CapnScurvy has a very nice pic of a 'slide-rule' (Omnimeter) from USS COD j.... there are many do it yourself patterns for it but his pic is the real deal: From CapnScurvy's Optical Targeting Correction: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=181172 Quote:
Plot, plot, plot and plot.
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" Bless those who serve beneath the deep, Through lonely hours their vigil keep. May peace their mission ever be, Protect each one we ask of thee. Bless those at home who wait and pray, For their return by night and day." |
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10-12-16, 01:53 PM | #12 | |||
Gefallen Engel U-666
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"Only two things are infinite; The Universe and human squirrelyness; and I'm not too sure about the Universe" |
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10-12-16, 01:55 PM | #13 |
Navy Seal
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All the cool stuff that never got into the game! And don't even get me started on missing sonar goodies!
People think that Silent Hunter is the last word in WWII sub simulation! I'd argue that it hasn't even reached first word status in many aspects. That is reflected by the fact that gamers think that calculating speed by timing ship length by the wire even makes sense. It makes sense to us because we have perfect information. Real subs didn't and would never consider such an abomination.
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Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks, Slightly Subnuclear Mk 14 & Cutie, Slightly Subnuclear Deck Gun, EZPlot 2.0, TMOPlot, TMOKeys, SH4CMS |
10-12-16, 04:16 PM | #14 |
Sea Lord
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Just an aside: Both Fluckey and O'Kane mention IDing a target as much as 24 hours after it was successfully attacked. So you can figure that a correct target ID was not considered critical to the fire control solution. Hitman, over on the SH3 forum, has researched the optics of existing WW2 U-boat periscopes, and most after 1940 apparently did not even have a stadimeter. It seems that this device was removed to allow room for a binocular eyepiece. KM doctrine called for ranging using the scope graticle, a rechnique which in the sim is fast and reliable enough using rough rule-of-thumb mast and funnel heights. For this technique, no positive target ID is required. SH4, AFAIK, does not allow manual entry of target mast height, as was done historically. (They didn't have an interactive Identification Manual!) Without a manual mast-height entry capability, there is no way to use the American stadimeter except by IDing the target. (If this statement is wrong, I hope someone will post the correct technique. It would be extremely useful.)
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10-12-16, 06:21 PM | #15 | ||
Gefallen Engel U-666
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