I just want to know

[mapuc]

I want to know WHY it does takes about 5-6 or more to refuel and reload or rearm an American fighter Jet like the F-18F Superhornet.

I have search the internet for information and I can't find anything.

I really want to know why a modern American Fighter Jet need so many hours when our own JAS39 Gripen(Griffin) don't even need half the time*


* Since our last discussion in another thread I have been searching the internet for the same info I have in my head about the Swedish Airforce in english. The only English information I could find is from Wiki and I have posted an answer about loading time a.s.o from wiki in that discussion.

I hope there are some one who can provide me with information to why it takes so long.

I just want to know

Markus

[Coiler]

The devs answered this (common) question in the Mega-FAQ, with a link to an old article.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Coiler

The devs answered this (common) question in the Mega-FAQ, with a link to an old article.

Thank you for giving me these links which I have already read, they do not provide me with the information I seek

Technical information as such. If some of you do not know or it is a secret then I do understand it fully, but I just want to know why technically...


Here's an example I found on a homepage and it's about the french airforce

Can't remember every word
"it don't take long to hang two Exocet-missile under the wing on a...but it takes about three hours to get the onboard computer to accept the Exocet"

that made me wonder is or have the french airforce several different type of operation computersystem that doesn't work together very well and could it be that it is exactly the same problem with the American fighters.

Or should I just leave it there and say this is the way it is....

Markus

[Herman]

The aircraft ready time requirements are just arbitrary numbers and only represent someone's best guess. Everyone has their own opinion on what they should be. The only relevant factor here is that in games like Harpoon or Naval War Arctic Circle, you aren't force to accept someone else's perception of reality. If you don't agree with their numbers, you can always change it to something you find more suitable.

There are people who disagree with the ready times set forth within the Harpoon PlayersDB. They simply change them to 30 minutes or whatever suits them with the DB editor and then play the scenario. That option does not exist for MNO.

[mapuc]

I do not question whether it is correct or not. I just wonder why it takes about 5-6 hours.

I have read about field personnel and pilots need for rest, but which Air Force has ONLY a few staff per plane, and just one pilot per flight ??

Could it be that the dev behind this great game do not know why technically?

Markus

[Herman]

You raise good points. The Harpoon PlayersDB has most strike aircraft set for 6 hour turn-around times. This is just a best guess. The number is only an approximation for the number of times I think the aircraft would fly in a day. It is nothing better than a rough guess.

Other folks have made up all kinds of justifications such as:

17 minutes to taxi
11 minutes to walk to car
02 minutes to take a piss
.2 minutes to shake off
.5 minutes to wash your hands
etc
-----
6 hours total

'Magically', it adds up to some pre-determined time, but the numbers are just pulled out of thin air - pure fabrications. Harpoon players also disagree with the PlayersDB ready times. They just go modify it to what they believe is more accurate. This is what CasoDB and WinstonDB did. They don't agree with the 6 hour delay and changed it to 30 minutes for their own pleasure. You can't do that with MNO.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Herman

You raise good points. The Harpoon PlayersDB has most strike aircraft set for 6 hour turn-around times. This is just a best guess. The number is only an approximation for the number of times I think the aircraft would fly in a day. It is nothing better than a rough guess.

Other folks have made up all kinds of justifications such as:

17 minutes to taxi
11 minutes to walk to car
02 minutes to take a piss
.2 minutes to shake off
.5 minutes to wash your hands
etc
-----
6 hours total

'Magically', it adds up to some pre-determined time, but the numbers are just pulled out of thin air - pure fabrications. Harpoon players also disagree with the PlayersDB ready times. They just go modify it to what they believe is more accurate. This is what CasoDB and WinstonDB did. They don't agree with the 6 hour delay and changed it to 30 minutes for their own pleasure. You can't do that with MNO.

First of all I do not need to change the time of readiness if it is correct and I'll have a warefare sim that is as correctly as possible.

Here's another thought may be rude.

So the American fighters e.g F-18F takes about 5 hous to refuel and reload e.g ASUW-loadoat so therefore in EVERY other airforce it MUST be the same readiness time.

Or the first 1000 person is right handed so person number 1001-1010 must also be right handed. logic as its best.

I do not like guesses.

Markus

[Herman]

Originally Posted by mapuc

So the American fighters e.g F-18F takes about 5 hous to refuel and reload e.g ASUW-loadoat so therefore in EVERY other airforce it MUST be the same readiness time.

You are looking at the Ready Time values as though there was some kind of 'right' or 'correct' answer. There is no such thing. There are no mathematical or laws of physics to govern them. They are simply someone's best guess or opinion. It is just one person's perception of reality.

A USAF F-16 might require 6 hours to load with bombs while a Jordanian F-16 might take 8-9 hours for the same loadout. These values are not necessarily the same, but they are arbitrarily set by the database manager in MNO. If you don't agree with them, your only choice is not play or request a refund. You can't change them.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Herman

You are looking at the Ready Time values as though there was some kind of 'right' or 'correct' answer. There is no such thing. There are no mathematical or laws of physics to govern them. They are simply someone's best guess or opinion. It is just one person's perception of reality.

A USAF F-16 might require 6 hours to load with bombs while a Jordanian F-16 might take 8-9 hours for the same loadout. These values are not necessarily the same, but they are arbitrarily set by the database manager in MNO. If you don't agree with them, your only choice is not play or request a refund. You can't change them.

Thank you for your answer.

I do hope that I get a technical answer to why it takes so long.


Markus

[noguaranteeofsanity]

Just my 2 cents and thoughts about this...

Some nations or units have multiple crews or pilots for each aircraft, but I also know some nations don't and so rest or sleep would certainly be a factor. For example the RAAF has trouble hanging on to pilots because once they are taught to fly they can get a job with an airline for double or triple the salary, without being moved around the country every few years, or serving in remote airfields. Even when they borrowed pilots from other squadrons, the RAAF only had 25 pilots for the 14 aircraft they deployed to the Middle East to support operations in Iraq.

Maintenance would be another factor that isn't really modelled properly in any game, simply because most aircraft have 1000s of components, each of which will need to be individually serviced after X number of flying hours and it would simply be far too complex to model or keep track of it all (plus make any game unplayable). But for example they might have to pull out and check the engines every 100 hours, or the hydraulics every 50 hours and so on. Grounding an aircraft for 12 hours every day is a good way to abstract this without having a player juggle or worry about complicated maintenance schedules.

I am not certain about this, but if you look at the technical specs for a lot of datalinks used by the military, you will see they are far slower than your average internet connection or computer network, so I imagine that lack of bandwidth might limit the speed that data can be transferred or loaded into a aircraft. That might partly explain the 3 hour delay linking an exocet up to a aircraft, but that is just a guess.

Apart from that I don't think you are going to get a detailed answer, because there are too many different aircraft, weapons and militaries, all of which are going to do things differently in different circumstances, or have different requirements and constraints on how quickly they can ready an aircraft.

Finally if you have Command questions, I would suggest asking on the Matrix forums which seem to be far more active and you are likely to get a much better answer.

[emsoy]

Replied here:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...9&postcount=35

During surge ops, 4th gen fighters can produce 2.0 to 2.1 sorties per aircraft per day. But not all aircraft would fly at the same time. Typically, 1/4 to 1/3 of them would be stuck on the ground. Also, a day/night capable strike squadron should be able to produce 3 packages per day.

So lets take a quick look at how a 12-aircraft squadron would be implemented in Command:

First make 4 aircraft permanenty unavailable for ops. That prevents the player from putting more than 2/3 of the fighters in the air as per RL observations.

Then ready the remaining eight aircraft with strike loadouts. These have 6 hr ready time. With a 500nm strike radius you need 2 hrs (++) to fly the mission. So that's 8 hrs to ready and fly. Then repeat three times (again as per RL ops), and you end up on 2.0 surge sorties per plane per day.

If you make 10 out of 12 planes available to the player you get 2.5 sorties per aircraft per day and you've probably moved beyond what's realistic. There are real-life examples where much higher sortie rates have been achieved (typically for simpler CAS missions that do not require any briefing - all you do is haul bombs a short distance) and we will look into adding a 'quick turnaround' option for these cases. Ref earlier discussion.

I'd also like to have a 'sustained ops' ready time option, where the player is limited to 0.6-0.9 sorties per plane per day as a alternative to the 2.0-2.1 surge rates we have today. Will have to discuss it in more detail with the other programmers when back from the summer break.

Thanks!

[emsoy]

Originally Posted by Herman

The aircraft ready time requirements are just arbitrary numbers and only represent someone's best guess. Everyone has their own opinion on what they should be. The only relevant factor here is that in games like Harpoon or Naval War Arctic Circle, you aren't force to accept someone else's perception of reality. If you don't agree with their numbers, you can always change it to something you find more suitable.

LOL Herman is this supposed to be another one of your little anti-Command potshots?

Still angry for getting called out on your bullcrap - when you copied our (now outdated) Harpoon material and tried to steal the credit for it? Dude, systematically copying other people's work, label it as your 'own creation', and at the same time discrediting, stalking and harassing the original authors isn't cool. More here:

http://www.warfaresims.com/?cat=129

LOL when your hate campaign gets you slapped down and banned by moderators at one site you immediately move on to the next. It's like whack-a-mole.

Herman, how many days have passed since you were banned from a forum and had your posts and 'copycat' material removed and user deleted? Less than two weeks huh?

Oh and where did your stalker & trolling buddy go? The 'Milan Monster' dude? Haven't seen him in at least a few days.

There are people who disagree with the ready times set forth within the Harpoon PlayersDB. They simply change them to 30 minutes or whatever suits them with the DB editor and then play the scenario. That option does not exist for MNO.

In fact it seems most people disagree with you. Wonder why

And what is MNO?

[mapuc]

I'm not interested in that discussion you have with Herman I just want to know the technical stuff behind this 5-6 hour or more regarding refuel and reload or rearm a fighter jet.

I do NOT questioning whether it take 5-6 hour or more

Markus

[emsoy]

I understand, and I apologize.

Please give me some days and I'll try to write up a more detailed explanation. But here and now I can tell you its not topping up of fuel and mounting stores on aircraft that takes time. Main factors are planning, briefing, weapon assembly, crew rest, and to some degree also maintenance.

The planned Quick-Turnaround option will cover fuel and ordnance only, and will be as short as 20-30 min, in some cases even less.

Thanks

[Herman]

Originally Posted by mapuc

I do NOT questioning whether it take 5-6 hour or more

I think you SHOULD. It is a very valid point.

As has been pointed out, the Swedes and Israelis have very sophisticated re-arm and re-fuel systems to maximize sortie rates. That's one reason why Alan Caso created his derivative CasoDB from the PlayersDB. He reduced the generic 6 hour ready times to something he felt was more reasonable, about two hours.

Others have customized the PlayersDB further. One user even had instantaneous ready time! I'd never say that anyone's opinion was right or wrong, but that was a bit drastic even for my tastes. Such a shame that MNO doesn't allow for this option.