Alexander Litvinenko Part II anybody?

[mapuc]

According to the news here in Denmark

The Government in London have put forward two question

1. Was it you(Russia) who did it ?
2. Have you fully control over you chemical weapon

I understand they(Russia) have until tomorrow 8 pm.

I would add an additional question

3. Have you(Putin) Fully control over your agencies

There is a very small possibility that someone have acted without Putin's knowledge or approval.

Markus

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Catfish

I have an idea about how to react:
Threaten Russia with a forever debate in parliament.
This is probably what Merkel would do

I watched the Theresa May Parliamentary speech earlier and the cross party responses that followed and was surprised at all the dirty deeds that were brought back to the forefront.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by mapuc

[...]
There is a very small possibility that someone have acted without Putin's knowledge or approval. Markus

This will be Putin's answer, and "those responsible for this eeeevil deed will be punished. Or something. Promised!"

[Skybird]

May set up an ultimatum, but forgot the part of the sentence that followed the word "else".

There is nothing Britian can do to hurt the Russians over this. Sanctions? Ha! Exchange of diplomatic staff? Ha-Ha! No more mutual consulations on something? Ha! Ha! Hahaha!

Its stupid to raise ultimatums when you have no threat to set up. Its all symbolic word-shelling. Scorer of the day however was Corbyn, demanding to not even stop talking. He probably dreams of shaking Putin's hand to death.

[mapuc]

@ Skybird

What should or could they do then ?

Just sit tight and say, well we can't do anything ?

Markus

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Skybird

May set up an ultimatum, but forgot the part of the sentence that followed the word "else".

There is nothing Britian can do to hurt the Russians over this. Sanctions? Ha! Exchange of diplomatic staff? Ha-Ha! No more mutual consulations on something? Ha! Ha! Hahaha!

Its stupid to raise ultimatums when you have no threat to set up. Its all symbolic word-shelling. Scorer of the day however was Corbyn, demanding to not even stop talking. He probably dreams of shaking Putin's hand to death.

Better to do something than nothing and you as a German citizen 'with an opinion' should know that full well.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Better to do something than nothing and you as a German citizen 'with an opinion' should know that full well.

Originally Posted by mapuc

What should or could they do then ?
Just sit tight and say, well we can't do anything ?

You both read what I answered already here to Jim's earlier question for the same:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...0&postcount=18

When you impose an ultimatum, you shall NEVER negotiate it. You shall NEVER prolong it. You shall NEVEr set it up if you have no threat to mount in case the other lest the ultimatum pass.

Because if you see your ultimatum getting ignored, either you only have an act of weakness and helplessness to carry out, by which you demonstrate to the world and the other side that you are indeed helpless and weak, you even prove that you are helpless and weak; or you do not react at all and just set up another ultimatum of which the other side, thanks to your splendid demonstration, knows that it must not fear it too,m since you already did nothing to enforce your first uzltimatum. No matter what, you lose, and show what a weak, helpless bigmouthed idiot you are.

Therefore I must strictly oppose you suggestions for shallow, mindless, pointless symbolic actions. This is no spelling competition. The problem is, that Britain's position against the Russian attack is extremely weak, and as long as Britain doe snot do what is needed to chnage that and gain a much stronger position, and a stronger will to play th dirty game dirty for sure, nothing you do will impress the Russians. And who knows - they may ven find perfectly amused.

If you deal with rabied dogs that communicate by biting, killing, slamming fists on the table and putting their golden opostol on the table when they enter the room and sit down at the table, you better do not think that distinguished manners and polite wording is what will win you the round - thery will laugh about you. You need to grow muscle that threatens them and you need to grow a will that makes them afraid that if you attack them they find themselves in a real bad bar brawl. And that is where it lacks.

No will to fight a bar brawl, no muslces to support this will - and will of th eother to take you serious. That simple, that elemental it is. In ther Middle East, maym people understand this. In Russia and associated factions, poeple understand this. Westerners consider themselves to be too civilized for this.

Britain, Europe, the West - we are too weak and indifferent, too undecided. and Putin not only knows that - he counts on it and bases his own planning on right this. And the successes of the past years show him right. Every foreign poltical conflict he has sought, he has won. Becasue we are weak and indifferent.

The russian government most likely kills people in Great Britain's territory, and not for the first time. This, gentleman, in principle is an act of war. And we talk academcis here, and a tiny British navy has nice modern techie ships, but not the numbers to seriously concern the Russians.

THAT is the real problem here. Weakness.

The Russians will get away with this latest stunt of theirs, and becoming even more stubborn, and united behind Putin! It works good for them this way- why should they stop? Becasue May fires one of these globally feared Western killer ultimatums...?

[mapuc]

I agree on that our Western leaders a weak and we have a weak military

I also know the Russians only respect strength

I don't like following sentence

"This, gentleman, in principle is an act of war. And we talk academcis here"
(copied directly from your text)

I don't know what type of answer Russia will send and what government in London will do after that.

The government have many options in their bag

War is not one of them-I'm 150 % sure of that.

Markus

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by mapuc

I agree on that our Western leaders a weak and we have a weak military

I also know the Russians only respect strength

I don't like following sentence

"This, gentleman, in principle is an act of war. And we talk academcis here"
(copied directly from your text)

I don't know what type of answer Russia will send and what government in London will do after that.

The government have many options in their bag

War is not one of them-I'm 150 % sure of that.

Markus

Russia - Mapuc 1:0

Assassinating people in another sovereign nation for political motives, is an attack against that state's sovereignity and its people. NATO explains that it is based on the princicple of "shared values" (well, that obviously has beocme a wide field...) and that an attack on one should be seen as an attack on all. What therefore - in an ideal world - would happen is that not just britain but ALL NATO nations expell Russian staff, and that NATO ends all committments with the Russian state and military, and that all trade relations of all NATO countries will end, and that Europe stops buying Russian gas. And that NATO aims at getting into shape again to be able to seriously hurt Russia if it continues to attack the West on its own soil. But currently, the Russian military threat in Eastern Europe cannot be coutnered by NATO, and the intel war is too masisvely focussed on hightech games, for my taste, while the human factors and human operations seem to get underrated.

And yes, I know what that would mean for German economy. But I say also since many, many years that an econoym as dependent on experots as Germany, in my book is not to be counted as strong. When you are so dependent on something beyond your control, then you are not strong, but weak. Dependency is no strength.

Symbolic acts and bighmouthed words will not change anything here. You could as well ty to stop the drop of a barrel bomb by condemning it. What helps against that is to shoot down the aircraft dropping it before it drops it. SDo that maybe said aicraft doe snot even ake off, due to fear.

But what is there in Europe that Russia should fear...??? LOL

[Skybird]

And one thing more, mapuc. Its not that we just have weak politicians that have no spine but plenty of opportunism, and that our military in Europe is weak. Its a weakness that has befallen the whole Western civilization, and all our mentality. Most people allow the politicians do do like they do, and they even demand them to do like this. We define indifference as tolerance, weakness as a virtue, and altruism as moral duty number one. we deny ourselves and thinki by that we demiosntrate our civilizational superiority. We don't. We only stand peacefully in line and wait to get led to the slaughtering house. No need to push and fight, everybody will find his place, there will be a knife for everybody. Stay classy!

I attack politicians all the time. But my furor against them is nothing against my wrath and disgust I feel for the ordinary crowd. The plebs. Der Pöbel.

Politicians have no inbuild strength of themselves. They are only dominant and strong because most people refuse to not be weak anymore, to not be comfortable and lazy anymore. Our weakness is their only strength.

Them politicians are the symptom. The plebs is the cause. And lets be honest. Most people do not want it any different, lazy and opportunistic as they are.

[Mr Quatro]

http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/...312-story.html

It was unclear why it took a week for public health warnings to be issued to the approximately 500 people who visited the restaurant or the pub where the former spy and his daughter spent time March 4 before being found slumped unconscious on a bench in the quiet cathedral city of Salisbury.

On Sunday, the government issued an advisory saying any member of the public who frequented the restaurant Zizzi or the Mill pub should wash their clothes, double bag any items for dry cleaning and wipe any jewelry or cellphones with wet wipes to prevent possible contamination.

A table inside Zizzi, where Skripal and his daughter ate lunch, has been destroyed after traces of poison were found on it, officials said.

They knew the victims were an ex-Russian spy and his daughter ... they knew it was some kind of deadly nerve agent ... they know where to point the fingers.

Russian President Vladimir Putin, meanwhile, advised Britain to get things clear with the poisoning before discussing the matter with officials from his country, Russia's Tass news agency reported.

Putin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said the Skripal case had nothing to do with Moscow.

"In any case, this is not our affair at all," Peskov said. "The aforesaid Russian citizen had worked for one of Britain's secret services. The incident occurred in British territory. By all means this is not an affair that concerns Russia, let alone Russia's leadership."

I think this attack could possibly have something to do with Putin's reelection bid coming up this month. A warning to others perhaps

[Catfish]

And do not forget the recent russian cyber attacks, which are nothing else than an act of war.

Putin and those other new bullies jumping up everywhere only understand a punch right on the nose. But i wrote this before, here.

[Jimbuna]

Below is a list of suggested actions the UK could consider taking but I doubt Russia would be overly bothered by such actions.

Expel senior diplomats, perhaps even the Russian ambassador, and known Russian intelligence agents.

Take some sort of action to bar wealthy Russian oligarchs from accessing their mansions and other luxuries in London, as suggested by Tory MP and House of Commons foreign affairs committee chair Tom Tugendhat. One way this could happen is through the use of Unexplained Wealth Orders, which allow government officials to seize assets including property until they have been properly accounted for.

A boycott of the Fifa World Cup in Russia later this year by officials and dignitaries - a symbolic move that UK allies are unlikely to emulate.

Taking Russian broadcasters such as RT (formerly Russia Today) off the air - broadcasting regulator Ofcom has said it will "consider the implications for RT's broadcast licences" after Mrs May speaks on Wednesday.

Pass a British version of the 2012 US Magnitsky act, which punishes Russians involved in corruption and human rights violations with asset freezes and travel bans. It is named after a Russian lawyer who died in custody after revealing alleged fraud by state officials. MPs have been pushing for a Magnitsky amendment to be added to the Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Bill now going through Parliament.

[Jimbuna]

Just come across this post elsewhere and I must say, I believe it to be a pretty fair summary/reality check.

Given half of Europe (well, a high percentage anyway) runs on Russian natural gas, then I suspect that beyond a bit of loud 'hurrrumphing' and stage-managed hand-wringing and head-shaking, few European States will want to go much beyond that - at least not until the weather warms up.... don't forget who has his hands on the valve that controls the flow of natural gas down the pipeline form the East.... the opening cartoon from 'Have I got News for You.' pretty much sums it up.

UK and Norway may be able to keep the lights on for a few days longer given access to North Sea gas fields, but too much of mainland Europe depends on Russian gas for them to take too firm a stand beside UK, and while it might be possible to import LPG form other places, it would take a while to get the logistics in place.

Nope, if it is Russia behind the poisoning, then they know there is very little UK can do on its own, and that although EU members might do a bit of posturing, major EU players have a pretty weak hand to play, and given BREXIT, many EU members may simply shrug their shoulders and decide its best not to raise their heads above the parapet on behalf of a nation who has already reached for the exit door-handle.

POTUS probably won't get too involved unless he sees an opportunity to improve US economy and thus further bolster his support at home.

I sense Blighty may be very much on our own on this one... and while it seems to be taking the Remoaners an age to jump on the bandwagon, I have no doubt that they will soo tell us all that 'had UK not voted for BREXIT then EU would have offered more help in censoring Russia blah blah blah..." whereas, for the reasons above, EU members would probably not take a very strong stance whether or not BREXIT was underway...


Better re-open our coal mines, build loads more wind/solar farms, and get Hinckley Point B up and running ASAP so that we can be self-sufficient in energy, and sod the global warming..(oh, I forgot, look who's funding Hinckley Point B...I hope we don't fall out with our Chinese chums and their new 'lifetime leader' too quickly, otherwise we'll all be back to using candles to light our evenings ).


So, assuming no admission of guilt is forthcoming and it's 'Handbags at Dawn' tomorrow, then I fear our twee little lipstick-filled clutch-bag is going to be pretty ineffectual against their brick-laden shoulder bag....

Finger pointing is fine, but when 'their' big stick is somewhat larger than ours, and our friends have suddenly started finding good reasons to be elsewhere, then I suspect we will have little choice but to express our 'severe displeasure' in writing, and then walk slowly away while the playground bully laughs at us, and wonders who to pick on next.

[Catfish]

It seems Putin already exploits brexit to the most.

" [...] and our friends have suddenly started finding good reasons to be elsewhere, [...]"
Wasn't that the other way round?