Thoughts on Yasen class SSN

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Does the fact that Russian tanks have only three crewman make their crews or tank efficiency better? Well, I board a Leopard anytime before a T-80, I tell you.

Sorry, I have better trust in the American and British training programs for submarine crews and officers. The doctrines also are such that Eastern officers especially in the army are more obedient and submissive to the next higher level of hierarchy than in especially the American army, where they are trained to be more self-responsible and individual in their decisions and freedoms to decide. And when it comes to sonar and propellers, again I give the West the edge.

Perhaps ... but that was not the argument you made. You argued that the "quality" of a Navy is judged by the "outcome" (which from the context outcome is determined by the number of accidents so big they cannot be concealed). I just point out a flaw in that argument.

However, let me just punch a small hole in your confidence in American training (I have to admit I have yet to hear of such a disaster from the Brits).

There was this destroyer, nearly brand new at the time, who challenged a gunnery range. Presumably, it had been warned about the exercise countless months in advance, and mobilized any squadron resources required to ensure the equipment was in top shape. It went to the range ... where the gun broke. They fixed it, and almost completed the exercises ... when the gun broke again ... for over an hour. Now, I don't care how fast or how accurately they shot when the gun worked ... if that had been for real, that would be two failures to contribute even minimally to the mission at the mandated times. For some reason, they got over 100 (103.7 to be exact).

By the way, lest you think this came from a Lewis Page or some other unsavory character, no, it didn't. The ship is USS Barry, the commander was Stavridis (you know him, he topped off as SACEUR...), and he was so proud of the event in his Destroyer Command. Now, I'm sure his crew worked very hard, but doesn't he have any doubt about a system that permitted a >100 mark when the gun failed to fire twice? Should we?

When Suvorov dissed Soviet Army inspections in his Inside the Soviet Army, at least the APC moved in a presumably Excellent fashion. At least bullets were hitting the targets. And at least they had the excuse that there was only one moving APC so how can you seriously expect more than one APC driver to be trained to an Excellent level. What excuse did Stavridis have being in the well-funded US Navy?

Compare for example the high Russian losses due to the way they approached armoured fighting in city environments in the Georgian war, and compare that to the way British, American and Israeli forces operate armoured forces inside towns and villages. The difference in efficiency and loss ratio is STUNNING.

Here's my overview of the Georgian War. It is probably true that British, American and Israeli forces can operate more cleanly. It is, however, at least possible that the Georgians would be a bit more competent (they are, after all, at least partially American trained) than the Iraqis the Brits and Yanks were fighting, so maybe it won't be as clean for the Brits and Americans as well.

Here is one thing that's 99.9% sure though, if the post 90s Britain or the US ran that op ... we'll be hearing about bombing raids for at least three months before the first tank even dares to cross the border. Say what you want about the Russians, but they finished faster than the West would have been able to start.

[Mr Quatro]

You know all of those medals admirals and captains and officers and enlisted men wear on their uniforms?

They hand them out after the war is won, not before

[ikalugin]

On the topic.

First of all I think that project 885 is actually a substantial departure from the project 971 desighn because:
- different overall structure, 1.5 hull vs double hull.
- substantially different sonar and torpedo tube placement.
- different armament (only 533mm, no external torp tubes, missile silos).

As to how modern the (sole in it's class) Severomorsk is - it is old, as the lengthy building (sufficient funds arrived post 2008 I think) lead to a number of systems growing old. That said, the subs currently in production (project 08851) appear to have upgraded internal systems, meaning that they would (probably, should the proper funding continue) be decent after their launch.

Morever - a mystery 09851 class has been layed down recently, which may be a prototype for the new submarine series.

Overall Russian navy appears to have barely sufficient production programs - 3 new nuclear attack subs, boomers, number of conventional subs. The reason for this is (in my opinion) the decrease in shipbuilding capability which, unlike the Sukhoi and UVZ, did not survive the pre 2008 period well.

[Oberon]

I wouldn't knock the T-80 too badly, it might not have the bells and whistles of the Leopard II/M1A2/Challie II but it's still a very potent weapon (although I too, would take the NATO tank...I can't deny that). Likewise the later model T-72s and T-90, but I must admit I'm not a big fan of the auto-loaders (neither are the gunners arms, so I hear ). ERA though, the Russians have done good stuff with that, don't forget the nasty shock that NATO got when Germany unified and we started shooting SABOTs at an ERA T-72 and found that the M829 (I think) wasn't the magic bullet that we thought it was, as the ERA broke the SABOT up before it penetrated the hull.
Likewise, the MiG-29 with its ability to lock on targets 45 degrees off the aim-point, that gave NATO a scare too.
Sure, NATO troops made up in other areas, and still do, but I wouldn't automatically downgrade the potency of a single unit because of its nationality (unless it's North Korean), however I do agree that the numeracy advantage was a key factor in the Soviet strategy for a Cold war attack, that, and nuclear weapons...lots of nuclear weapons...

I can't help but like the T-72 though, perhaps it's because of all the times I've seen that familiar low, curved shape lumber over a hillside and come trundling towards my position.

[Oberon]

Another thing that the Russians have an advantage over NATO in, and this is a bit more in keeping with the subject matter of this thread (heaven forbid ), and that's the Shkval. I'm not aware of any NATO torpedo that is a counterpart to the Shkval, and the Shkvals current weakness, the inability to turn is (or quite possibly has, not sure on the current state of affairs) being (been) worked on. There are no countermeasures that work against a Shkval, the only hope you have is that a) it doesn't have a nuclear warhead, b) the enemy has a poor firing solution on you or c) kill the enemy before he fires.
I think the Shkval might have one other weakness in comparison to the likes of the ADCAP and that's range, I think it's a fairly close in weapon, but that will change in time, oh...and it uses HTP which is not exactly the worlds most stable substance. However, if you've ever been on the receiving end of one in the likes of Dangerous Waters...well, it's probably a bit like the first time you get an ATGM to the side in Steel Beasts Pro, you don't see it until it's already too late to do anything about it and before you can even think "Oh, that's a..." you're dead.

[ikalugin]

To be honets, I think what Russia needs at the moment is something on the lines of this:

 

with a large aperture conformal sonar set. e.g.:

But with the pump jet and multipurpose payload bay.

[Kapitan]

I Think 885 will be built in a largeish number and will maintain the back bone of the Russian navy for a good few years, so far 16 are planned they look capable and despite the long wait they are finally here.

[ikalugin]

Originally Posted by Kapitan

I Think 885 will be built in a largeish number and will maintain the back bone of the Russian navy for a good few years, so far 16 are planned they look capable and despite the long wait they are finally here.

Where did you get that number? As far as I know only 7 are to be built (and this is including Severodvinsk) as from 2012 under GPV 2020.

[Kapitan]

Excuse me I have screwed up here (dancing between posts)

7 ordered 12 planned not 16 my bad !

[ikalugin]

5 planned would assume that there is some further (post 2020) program to build them, I am not aware of such program.