US Politics Thread 2016-2020

[August]

Here you go Catfish, the definition of Foe (I have highlighted the parts you omitted:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/foe

foe
fō
noun
noun: foe; plural noun: foes
an enemy or opponent.
"join forces against the common foe"


Synonyms: enemy, adversary, opponent, rival, antagonist, combatant, challenger, competitor, opposer, opposition, competition, other side.

See Catfish? You deliberately left out the less martial meanings of the word foe just because you hate Donald Trump. That's pretty much the same crap you see from the Dems via their media shills every day. Now as a private individual you can be as biased as you please but I prefer to hold our news media to a higher standard.

[vienna]

...and the majority of Americans expect a President to adhere to a higher standard and Trump is a spectacular failure in all respects...


...you might say he's a "Yuuuuge" failure...


















<O>

[August]

Barack Obama October 2016:

There is no serious person out there who would suggest that you could even rig America's elections, in part because they are so decentralized. There is no evidence that that has happened in the past, or that there are instances that that could happen this time," the president said to the future president in October 2016.

"Democracy survives because we recognize that there is something more important than any individual campaign, and that is making sure the integrity and trust in our institutions sustains itself. Because Democracy works by consent, not by force," Obama said.

"I have never seen in my lifetime or in modern political history, any presidential candidate trying to discredit the elections and the election process before votes have even taken place. It is unprecedented. It happens to be based on no fact. Every expert regardless of political party... who has ever examined these issues in a serious way will tell you that instances of significant voter fraud are not to be found. Keep in mind elections are run by state and local officials."

Apparently according to the Democrats Russian meddling is only an issue if the wrong person wins the election. I have no doubt that had they won the last election we would not be hearing anything about Russian meddling.

[Platapus]

There is a difference between rigging an election as in hindering or affecting the collecting and recording of votes and interfering with the campaigns of one or more of the candidates as in using illegal means to misrepresent and to attempt to influence the voters in an unauthorized manner.

What Obama said and what the investigation is revealing are not mutually exclusive.

[vienna]

Originally Posted by August

Barack Obama October 2016:


Apparently according to the Democrats Russian meddling is only an issue if the wrong person wins the election. I have no doubt that had they won the last election we would not be hearing anything about Russian meddling.

Been drinking that Trumpette Kool-Aid again, eh. Note that you didn't give the source of your quote. My guess is it came from some sad, pathetic Trump-supporting website or some desperate Far-Right GOP site looking to try to hoodwink the gullible and uninformed. Like all such cherry-picked quotes, context is vital and like so many of Trump's panic driven flailings, it is wildly inaccurate as to the actual truth. From The Wire via FactCheck.org:


Trump’s Misguided Comparison --


https://www.factcheck.org/2018/02/tr...ed-comparison/


From the above article, here is Obama's actual statement, in full (the bolded parts are the words Trump very selectively chose to quote while 'conveniently ignoring the context:

It was these voter fraud claims from Trump to which Obama referred in remarks at a press conference on Oct. 18, 2016. The portions quoted by Trump are in bold.

Obama, Oct. 18: I have never seen in my lifetime or in modern political history any presidential candidate trying to discredit the elections and the election process before votes have even taken place. It’s unprecedented. It happens to be based on no facts. Every expert, regardless of political party, regardless of ideology — conservative or liberal — who has ever examined these issues in a serious way will tell you that instances of significant voter fraud are not to be found; that, keep in mind, elections are run by state and local officials, which means that there are places like Florida, for example, where you’ve got a Republican governor whose Republican appointees are going to be running and monitoring a whole bunch of these election sites. The notion that somehow if Mr. Trump loses Florida it’s because of those people that you have to watch out for — that is both irresponsible, and, by the way, it doesn’t really show the kind of leadership and toughness that you’d want out of a president.


If you start whining before the game is even over, if whenever things are going badly for you and you lose you start blaming somebody else, then you don’t have what it takes to be in this job. Because there are a lot of times when things don’t go our way, or my way. That’s okay. You fight through it, you work through it. You try to accomplish your goals.


But the larger point that I want to emphasize here is that there is no serious person out there who would suggest somehow that you could even rig America’s elections, in part because they’re so decentralized and the numbers of votes involved. There’s no evidence that that has happened in the past, or that there are instances in which that will happen this time.


And so I’d advise Mr. Trump to stop whining and go try to make his case to get votes.

Note that the statement regards only Trump's false claims of the election being rigged against Trump (the excuse he would have used had he lost) by domestic efforts and is not a denial of Russian tampering; in fact, there is absolutely no mention of Russia or other foreign interference at all in the statement. And it should be kept in mind that, at that time, the awareness of Russian efforts and the extent of those efforts was basically next to nil...


So, basically, Trump has been lying again and is misusing a quote from Obama, a quote that originally castigated Trump for being such a big, whiny baby and to get over it...


..and to stop whining is also good advice for the Trumpers out there to stop getting their Pampers in a twist over the rubbish the Far-Right Fake Media has been dishing out. To the Trumpers: You backed a loser and its time you just admit it and help the rest of the nation try to undo the damage Trump, and you, have done...














<O>

[August]

Originally Posted by Platapus

There is a difference between rigging an election as in hindering or affecting the collecting and recording of votes and interfering with the campaigns of one or more of the candidates as in using illegal means to misrepresent and to attempt to influence the voters in an unauthorized manner.

What Obama said and what the investigation is revealing are not mutually exclusive.

You mean not mutually exclusive like even though it turns out that the FBI did indeed spy upon the Trump campaign, Trump can still be wrong when he says he was "wiretapped"?

[vienna]

Got any actual, solid provable facts to back up the wiretapping and spying charges? I mean, something substantial, not just some op-ed piece or some Trump apologist's speculation cobbled together from out of context whacked out conspiracy theories? Like I said before, if there were any actual substance to those claims, logic and common sense would dictate a GOP president with a his own-appointed GOP AG, FBI Director, et al, would actually back up the BS with legal action and get some indictments. Its not all that difficult to do: after all Mueller seems o be having pretty good success with actual facts and evidence...
















<O>

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by August

Here you go Catfish, the definition of Foe (I have highlighted the parts you omitted:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/foe

Originally Posted by August

See Catfish? You deliberately left out the less martial meanings of the word foe just because you hate Donald Trump. That's pretty much the same crap you see from the Dems via their media shills every day. Now as a private individual you can be as biased as you please but I prefer to hold our news media to a higher standard.

Hmm, but your link tells something different:

"Definition of foe1 : one who has personal enmity for another

• Embrace, embrace, my Sons! be foes no more!
• —Alexander Pope

2 a : an enemy in war
b : adversary, opponent

• a political foe

3 : one who opposes on principle

• a foe of needless expenditures

• a foe of censorship

4 : something prejudicial or injurious"

And here is the meaning as described by the Cambridge dictionary:

"foe noun [ C ]
uk ​ /fəʊ/ us ​ /foʊ/ literary

​an enemy: The two countries have united against their common foe.
They were bitter foes for many years.
Foes of the government will be delighting in its current difficulties.

Thesaurus: synonyms and related words
Enemies & rivals"


So there is a slightly less harsh meaning at the fourth position or so? A rival or a competitor are one thing. But when i call someone a foe it is perfectly clear what that means. Bending, twisting and turning internationally accepted definitions to suit one's agenda is not a good basis for a discussion. Well we are used to it with Bannon's Fox News, which must have been doing damage control overtime in the last days. Funny how they now try to blame all critics on a "personal hate" towards Trump, when the main reason of all critic is obviously his incompetence, manners, and defending the alt-right.
My guess is that Trump just does not think before talking, which is one of his main problems.

I do not condemn him, also some points he makes are not wrong (thinking of defense budget, or foreign trade surplus, but he completely forgets what e.g Europe or other counties pay for computer licences and patents, which easily puts the US ahead regarding the trade surplus). Also he is (intentionally or not) destabilising NATO and international relations.

I do not hate Donald Trump, but what i think of him of being fit for that 'job' is something different. It is not even despise, but he clearly is no match for Putin, the latter had him for breakfast. After the G7 summit, the NATO meeting, the visit in the UK, how he behaved and what he said, by his own words his only friend sits in Moscow?

Certainly, one should never stop talking to each other, influence is bilateral, and people who talk and trade at least hesitate before shooting at each other. It would be also much easier for Germany to trade with Russia than with the US, if you think of geography and borders and let all else aside. That it is how it is is the direct product of NATO and the soviet block post WW2.
So Trump suddenly finds that talking with Russia again is in order, ok, granted.

But right now, with the Crimea, Syriah, Iran, provocations by fly-bys of russian jets, meddling with the US elections and Novitschok in England, a bit reluctance would also have been in order.

Germany had talks with Putin already years ago, with the "Petersburger Dialog" (hope the link works, translation by Google), to support the succession of a civilian society in Russia by means of trade and talks. Norway just joined with the arctic panel (Arctic panel). Just of all the US should know what trade is able to mobilise when it comes to relations, and political and civilian influence, e.g. after WW2. It was not Germany nor any other country that hindered or blocked the US to do something like that, it was just that the US were not interested.

So the relations between Russia and the US are by now better, thanks to Trump. If so, good. It would be even better if that would not come at the price of neglecting and insulting the natural allies of the US.

[Skybird]

Quite good comment on the state of things in the triangle US-Europe-Russia. And why Europe maybe even deserves to be humiliated by the Donald.

https://translate.google.com/transla...tml&edit-text=

Original: http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutsc...a-1218870.html

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Skybird

[...] And why Europe maybe even deserves to be humiliated by the Donald. l

I didn't know you were a flagellant

Ok, one of the better articles alright.

[Bilge_Rat]

so I have to say the american so-called "mainstream" media, democratic politicians and those suffering from "Trump derangement syndrome" have really reached a new low and really backed themselves into a corner, but I really do think they are too stupid to realize it.


After consistently ramping up the rethoric from "not experienced enough" to "incompetent" to "sexist" to "racist" to "Hitler", they are now calling the President of the United States a "traitor" with a straight face and calling for his overthrow!


Are these otherwise normal people complete morons? Do they really want to start a civil war over a lost election?


What will they say next week when they create the next "outrage of the day"? How can they top "traitor"?

Meanwhile Trump's approval rating among Republicans still sits at 90% and he still on track to win re-election in 2020.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

so I have to say the american so-called "mainstream" media, democratic politicians and those suffering from "Trump derangement syndrome" have really reached a new low and really backed themselves into a corner, but I really do think they are too stupid to realize it.

After consistently ramping up the rethoric from "not experienced enough" to "incompetent" to "sexist" to "racist" to "Hitler", they are now calling the President of the United States a "traitor" with a straight face and calling for his overthrow!

Are these otherwise normal people complete morons? Do they really want to start a civil war over a lost election?

What will they say next week when they create the next "outrage of the day"? How can they top "traitor"?

Meanwhile Trump's approval rating among Republicans still sits at 90% and he still on track to win re-election in 2020.

Trump has Merkelized the Republican party.

When Merkel took over the chancellor's office, the following two or three years she was busy with drastically eradicating every figure and name that maybe could ever pose a threat to her: may it be in elections, in race for the next candidacy, or may it mean critical opinions to her course. The high profiled named alpha males started to dissappear. One got complimented to the state presidency that in Germany is practically meaning- and powerless. The next got just bullied out until he voluntarily quite and withdraw from the party. Another one was complimented over to the ECB. The next got shifted to the distant office in some Brussel EU building. And so forth. After three and four years, no critical voice and nobody able and strong enough to seriously snap back at her, was left, the whole party had been turned into a club of Merkel-loyal claqueurs, puppies licking her hands, everybody who could disturb her daily routine, was gone. Since then she sees herself and her course as "alternativlos", as "without alternative". And in a way she is right: she has made sure that no personnel in her party was left that within the schemes and playing rules of mainstream politics could replace her or even threaten her. That way even her lousiest policies now in a way indeed are "without alternatives".

Trump does the same. The real heavyweights in the Rep party, practically are gone, are powerless, are unable to influence the party's inner mood or that in the country. Trump has turned his fans into addicts by giving them their daily dose of Trumpian drugging, like Merkel has soothed and lulled Germans into believing that Germany cannot go without the caretaking of Big Mama Merkel, and with her all things will be well - forever.

With some actions and claims by Trump, he just is right. The problem I have is I do not see him saying and doing these things while knowing that they are right, instead he opportunistically just does a lot of things like he pleases, without knowing and caring at all, and for mere probability he occasionally hits the right button and rings the correct bell and picks one of the few corns on the floor that hide between the many little stones and sand grains. Its as if you throw dice several times, and every time you get a 6, you claim that to be your strategy. It isn't. Its chance.

Thats why I say Donald Makes Himself Bigger Trump is an idiot, an intellectual void, even where he occasionally hints at something on which I would agree. Because the reasons why he hints at that, and why I agree with it maybe, could not be more apart.

That I take it for granted that the election campaign was interfered by Russia in Trumps favour, and that he is clearly in abuse of his position to protect himself from law enforcement, does not make it any better.

Germany after Merkel is not any better, but worse, and the world after Trump'S reign, and America, will not be better, but worse as well. Merkel and Trump are very different, but in a way, in the ways by which they cling to power, they are so similiar. I cannot stand them both. Its also possible that after Trump stops pushing the world around, said world will have found ways to push back that in the future, they years after Trump, or even already during his second term, will socially and economically backfire heavily against the US. Because the rub is in this: when you force somebody else so hard into submission and leave him no other way than to grow strong and stand up and break your oppression in self defence, he one day finally will do right this. And thats ends your rule over him then.

Since there are millions and millions of Trump supporters still supporting this infantile carricature of a leader, my sympathy will be extremely limited. You do not have just a claimed right to vote. Of course you also can be held responsible for what or whom you vote for.

[Bilge_Rat]

Skybird,

you seem to think that americans care one iota what any German thinks of their leader. Germany has been a non-entity since 1945, everyone knows that.

German businesses are the ones pushing the hardest to have the sanctions rolled back against Russia since it is hurting their business.

[Skybird]

https://www.politico.eu/article/puti...the-us-is-our/


https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/16/o...s-america.html

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

Skybird,

you seem to think that americans care one iota what any German thinks of their leader. Germany has been a non-entity since 1945, everyone knows that.

German businesses are the ones pushing the hardest to have the sanctions rolled back against Russia since it is hurting their business.

Oh, somebody's nerves got touched upon.