The Firearm thread: Engineering artistry of wood, polymer and steel.

[Stealhead]

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

No error implied; you just piqued my curiosity since I study that history and shoot everything black-powder and up to WWII; But if you counted the words in my post!!!?...good lord ol' son, ya really need a HAMM"S

Nah i just copy pasted into Word and got the word count.How many Hamms did it take you to write that?

[Red October1984]

Reviving this topic to get some opinions on my next gun. Do we have any shotgunners on here?

• 12 Gauge
• Able to shoot 3.5" shells
• Durable and Reliable
• Best Value For The Money

That's basically my criteria. Now, I have it narrowed down to the Benelli Nova and Remington 887. I've got a friend who has an 887 and my dad's got a Nova. I've heard some mixed things about the 887...and Benelli seems to have a good product line with the Nova.

The 887 has the special ArmorLokt coating...I read it described as a "glass-filled polymer coating." In reality, it just makes the thing feel plastic.

I'm leaning toward the Nova....which I can get for ~400$ around here but the 887 is only ~325$

I assume "You Get What You Pay For" applies to Benelli products. I took out the Nova the other day and ran some 2.75" High Velocity game loads through it and I really like the feel for it.

I'm just wondering should I consider the Remington 870 or any of the Mossberg products....

[Ducimus]

You missed the number 1 criteria:
What is this shotgun for? Hunting or self defense? With shotguns, it makes a world of difference in barrel length, magazine capacity, and choke. A good hunting shotgun makes a poor self defense shotgun and vice versa.

Personally, i'm in the Remington and Mossberg area, and really don't know much beyond those two brands. For hunting, id probably go with a Remington, mainly because I have a Remington 870 wingmaster in my gun safe, that was made in 1967 or so, and it's still chucking shells like it was brand new. The action is smooth, it's been 100% reliable, and has taken more dove, grouse, pheasant , quail, and other assorted upland game birds then i can count.

For self defense, that depends on what YOU want in a stock. Do you want a pistol grip with collapsible stock or a fixed stock? If you want a pistol grip with collapsible stock, again go with a Remington. The slide lock and safety locations are conducive to this setup. If you prefer a fixed stock, go with a Mossberg 500. The safety and slide release are in different locations then the 870 and are ergonomic to a fixed stock. Take it from someone who's made this mistake, DO NOT put an M4 styled stock on a mossberg. It's counter intuitive to the guns design. With a Remington 870 you have to shift your hand forward of the trigger guard to unlock the slide, with a mossberg 500, you do not have to shift your hand at all, so long as the receiver is on a fixed stock.

On the flip side mossbergs are harder to field strip, while Remingtons fairly easy. Also, Mossberg has a polymer or aluminum Reciever, and Remingtons are steel, if thats an issue for you. You may think im a Remington fan, but I actually have both, and like both. I have a Mossberg 500 with a short LOP stock and an 8 round magazine. It used to be my home defense piece, and would pick it over my Remington for that purpose.

[Red October1984]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

You missed the number 1 criteria:
What is this shotgun for? Hunting or self defense? With shotguns, it makes a world of difference in barrel length, magazine capacity, and choke. A good hunting shotgun makes a poor self defense shotgun and vice versa.

I'm looking at waterfowl...but something versatile that I can use for squirrels, doves, etc. Mainly waterfowl though. I want to get into duck hunting. I've got some good friends that are hardcore into it and I fell in love with it in November.

I'd need a choke for steel shot... as far as choke tubes go. Magazine capacity only allows like...3 shells to be in the gun at one time. And obviously I wouldn't want a short barrel for this kind of thing...

Personally, i'm in the Remington and Mossberg area, and really don't know much beyond those two brands. For hunting, id probably go with a Remington, mainly because I have a Remington 870 wingmaster in my gun safe, that was made in 1967 or so, and it's still chucking shells like it was brand new. The action is smooth, it's been 100% reliable, and has taken more dove, grouse, pheasant , quail, and other assorted upland game birds then i can count.

See, there are people that swear by the 870 Wingmaster and then there are people who swear by the Mossberg 500. The Wingmaster doesn't shoot 3.5" and it's out of my price range by about 300$ (according to the Remington website)

For self defense, that depends on what YOU want in a stock. Do you want a pistol grip with collapsible stock or a fixed stock? If you want a pistol grip with collapsible stock, again go with a Remington. The slide lock and safety locations are conducive to this setup. If you prefer a fixed stock, go with a Mossberg 500. The safety and slide release are in different locations then the 870 and are ergonomic to a fixed stock. Take it from someone who's made this mistake, DO NOT put an M4 styled stock on a mossberg. It's counter intuitive to the guns design. With a Remington 870 you have to shift your hand forward of the trigger guard to unlock the slide, with a mossberg 500, you do not have to shift your hand at all, so long as the receiver is on a fixed stock.

On the flip side mossbergs are harder to field strip, while Remingtons fairly easy. Also, Mossberg has a polymer or aluminum Reciever, and Remingtons are steel, if thats an issue for you. You may think im a Remington fan, but I actually have both, and like both. I have a Mossberg 500 with a short LOP stock and an 8 round magazine. It used to be my home defense piece, and would pick it over my Remington for that purpose.

Home defense isn't too much of an issue for me. Living where I live, any weapon in the house is a possible self defense weapon. There are some people who go hardcore-full-nine-yards with the weapons for self defense. Those usually seem to me to be the people who will likely NEVER have to use it and end up wasting money.


As I said, I'm leaning pretty hard toward the Nova right now....but I'm open to anything you have to say.

[Ducimus]

I overlooked your requirement of a 3 1/2 inch shell. Something I don't think i've ever used. 2 3/4" or 3" shell, high or low brass is all I can recall using. It sounds like your looking for a "long tom" for geese and what not.

I've pretty much "shot my wad" where shotguns are concerned, so i can't offer any more information then what I already have. Maybe someone else with more experience can chime in.

[Red October1984]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

I overlooked your requirement of a 3 1/2 inch shell. Something I don't think i've ever used. 2 3/4" or 3" shell, high or low brass is all I can recall using. It sounds like your looking for a "long tom" for geese and what not.

I've pretty much "shot my wad" where shotguns are concerned, so i can't offer any more information then what I already have. Maybe someone else with more experience can chime in.

Fair enough.

See, the perfect gun would be the Benelli Super Black Eagle II....but the cheapest one MSRP is $1500.

Who doesn't like semiautomatic 3.5" capable shotguns.

There's a lot of people with the argument against 3.5" that it'll shred any bird you shoot with it. But, yeah, I want something I can use for a variety of purposes. Geese, Ducks, Squirrels, maybe the odd rabbit or dove.

[Syxx_Killer]

I would seriously look at Mossberg. I have a 500, so it doesn't shoot 3.5" shells. However, you can get a 535 which is a 500 that can shoot 3.5" shells. Mossberg also has the pump 835 Ulti-Mag and the autoloading 935 if you want to go that route.

I've handled the 870 a few times, but never shot one. I haven't even had my 500 for that long; only for about a year and a half. Personally, I find the controls of the 500 more natural. The safety is a tang on the top of the receiver so it's easy to reach, especially if you shoot left handed. The slide-lock release lever is right behind the trigger so it's quick and easy to reach. I've heard the elevator can pinch you when you load shells with the 870. I can't speak for that, but with the Mossberg it won't pinch you. The receiver is aluminum, however the bolt is steel. When you lock the bolt in place ready to fire, all the pressure is directed at the bolt, not the receiver. The 500 is super easy to take apart for cleaning. There's some videos on YouTube, but once you do it a time or two it's a snap. I love taking the 500 apart. I know the 500 can't shoot 3.5" shells, but like I said the 535 is basically a 500 that can. My 500 came as a bundle with a 24" rifled barrel with scope mount, and 28" choked field barrel. I also bought an 18.5" barrel for it.

I've also read good things about the 835 and 935 if you want to go that route. You can't go wrong with any of the options you're looking at. If you can, check them all out and choose which one you like the best.

[August]

I have the Mossberg 590 Police Special. It's 9 shot tube more than makes up for a 3" chamber I think.

[Red October1984]

Originally Posted by Syxx_Killer

I would seriously look at Mossberg. I have a 500, so it doesn't shoot 3.5" shells. However, you can get a 535 which is a 500 that can shoot 3.5" shells. Mossberg also has the pump 835 Ulti-Mag and the autoloading 935 if you want to go that route.

I don't know what it is about Mossberg...but I just get completely turned off to their products. I might consider looking at the 535.

I'll have to look at prices for the autoloaders. I think if I had to get an autoloader I'd still go with a Super Black Eagle II. I asked my friend today if I could play with his Remington 887 for a little bit sometime soon.

I've also read good things about the 835 and 935 if you want to go that route. You can't go wrong with any of the options you're looking at. If you can, check them all out and choose which one you like the best.

I would LIKE to go that route....just get a semiauto gun from the get-go... However they all seem to be crazy expensive. Even with the SBE, I would really be very reluctant to drop more than 800$ on a shotgun. The Remington 11-87 is supposed to be an affordable alternative to the higher quality brands.

Originally Posted by August

I have the Mossberg 590 Police Special. It's 9 shot tube more than makes up for a 3" chamber I think.

I think if I'm going to get a second shotgun it would be the Magpul Tactical 870 that Remington has here.

That would be a pretty good "just goofing off" or squirrel gun.

Or I would look at the Benelli M3/M4 lines if I was feeling like dropping 2000$

[Ducimus]

You know, I have to wonder, just how important is the 3.5 " shell ? I would look into the value of a 3" vs a 3.5" more. On a lark i just googled "3.5 inch shotgun" and the first thing that caught my eye was this:

http://www.fieldandstream.com/articl...ut-shogun-ammo

then this:
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthr...h_more_range_d (8 page thread )

Maybe you've already hashed this out for yourself, I dunno, but a cursory look has me wondering about the practical value of a 3.5" shell. I can't say for sure, but I think your options on available shotguns open up a bit more with a 3" shell. In any event, if i were in the market for another shotgun, i'd be looking very closely at the pro's and cons on the two shell sizes.

As autoloaders go, i'm not sure there is such a thing as an affordable autoloader. Personally If I had 800 to 2,000 to blow, it wouldn't be on a scattergun.

[d@rk51d3]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

You know, I have to wonder, just how important is the 3.5 " shell ? I would look into the value of a 3" vs a 3.5" more. .

Seems that 3.5 shines at steel shot and long range. Although newer HV 3" loads seem to have pretty much caught up.

[Red October1984]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

You know, I have to wonder, just how important is the 3.5 " shell ? I would look into the value of a 3" vs a 3.5" more. On a lark i just googled "3.5 inch shotgun" and the first thing that caught my eye was this. Maybe you've already hashed this out for yourself, I dunno, but a cursory look has me wondering about the practical value of a 3.5" shell. I can't say for sure, but I think your options on available shotguns open up a bit more with a 3" shell. In any event, if i were in the market for another shotgun, i'd be looking very closely at the pro's and cons on the two shell sizes.

I'd like to have the option to go to 3.5"

It's traditionally what is used around here for geese. I have a box of 3" duck shells that I haven't gotten to use yet. I just want to get more bang for my buck. Figured i'd just get a good 2.75-3.5 inch gun that can do it all if I'm going to buy one at all.

As autoloaders go, i'm not sure there is such a thing as an affordable autoloader. Personally If I had 800 to 2,000 to blow, it wouldn't be on a scattergun.

See, i'm the same way. I've arrived at that conclusion. I'm not going to find a good affordable autoloader. If I wanted one I'd be looking at spending a LOT of money. If I was going to pay more than 800$ for a gun, it would be a tricked out tactical AR or something of the sort. I like a lot of FN's stuff.

Still haven't gotten an M14 yet.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Red October1984

I'd like to have the option to go to 3.5"

It's traditionally what is used around here for geese. I have a box of 3" duck shells that I haven't gotten to use yet.

Ahh, I see said the blind man. Don't mind me, i was just thinking aloud my ignorance. Options are good. I like options.

[Red October1984]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Ahh, I see said the blind man. Don't mind me, i was just thinking aloud my ignorance. Options are good. I like options.

Nah. You're good. The whole point of my posting here about this is to get opinions.

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by privateer

Anyone have any hands on with EAA’s Compact 9mm Witness Pavona for Women?

I'm considering one for the Wife.

Get one for each of them! 3.5 barrel lends to defense only at close distance...30'; wretched color selection; 13 rnds in .9mm-- prefer chrome slide to blued. More knock down oomph but fewer rounds (9) in SW.40 version which is better for ladies' home defense! $529 in chrome but the bad guy can see it in low light (opt out and start runnin') and there's less corrosion. Can the ladies handle a stiff slide pull as opposed to a 'tip-up' under stress?