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Old 11-02-2007, 11:49 AM   #16
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Map status 110207

Ok,

I know I’ve spoken with everyone of you on an individual basis, but I feel its’ good to bring this out in the open and decide what really makes sense and what direction to take. Plus this is good data for sake of record keeping.

So, let’s begin.

1.. CZ test results / conclusion:

We figured that the change to CZ would give RU subs a greater chance at 1st detection, but it turns out that attempting to resolve this possible issue has turned into something bigger. The problem now using a CZ is that if you know how it works, meaning that detection occurs at a defined range of 30nm, then there is opportunity that either side can exploit this SSP. In fact you won’t even need to do TMA or even calculate the speed since you basically know the end solution to TMA; the range. Therefore, CZ cannot be used. And I don’t think we can say exactly what RU subs or 688 will do or handle a situation like this, simply because everyone is different and everyone makes different choices. In closing the goal here is to give subs on both sides a chance at detection, not a promise or a guarantee.

2.. SD / 84 Buoys / bear 400 kts:

Prior to the change to CZ, SD was in place and we were convinced that SD was a problem for RU having a chance at 1st detection, but I think it depends on how you look at it. It seemed like SD reduced the chances of RU subs making 1st detection, but based on the bears’ coding of a full load of buoys capable of scanning both sides of the layer, where 50% of them are VLAD which are good for deep running contacts, SD DOES NOT affect RED SIDE chances of detection, which I figure that rings in @ 50% base, simply because of the buoys will more than likely be in position before RU subs can, and with the presence of red side acoustic ships capable of scanning both sides of the layer also, red side detection base > 50% SD also removes any room for exploit of any kind, however RU subs still have a chance of 1st detection across the board depending on spawn and any clue given by the 688 of its whereabouts(cavitating) to a listening akula. RU subs will have a greater chance of 2nd detection, and what I mean by that if detected by MAD or buoys or red surface, RU subs could be in a position to intercept. The presence of red side acoustic intel ships increases the red side base detection to over 50%, while in the same time has no effect on RU sub 1st detection. Also I just realized that taking control of the bear reduces the base detection for that moment of time because you are effectively taking the bear away from its maximum efficiency of ASW operations. While under influence, his speed is reduced and coverage is smaller and more concentrated per request of the one controlling him. For that reason we need to be mindful how and when we control the bear, but this is truly a reflection of planning on the red side more so than anything, I’d say.

3.. Test case – RU side detection average:

I figure there is a good way to test the detection base based on ideal cruising speeds for the 688. But the actual cruising speed of the 688 depends on the person and their choice of tactics and efforts of optimized stealth.

I figure this test is simple. I’ll run a script to dive the 688 and resume ideal cruising speed and course in efforts to attempt to complete the mission. At time of detection, I’ll also record the range of RU subs w/ respect to the 688. The test will include 10 data points in SP and time compression, meaning I’ll run this map 10 times, more so than dive it 10 times and hopefully achieve the same outcome. What I need to see is the number of times the 688 is detected on avg and the likelihood that RU subs can intercept (2nd detection).

4.. Closing:

A.. As far as I’m concerned, until I’m convinced that CZ can’t offer any form of exploit, or if its effectiveness can be reduced, it has no place on this map as well as the entire set. To me using CZ jeopardizes the integrity of the map(any map rather) by giving all playables the location of each other once initial contact is made. It’s not just a matter of ‘when’ it’s also a matter of ‘if’. In saying this I’m keeping replay value in mind, and I don’t see that as a positive if each time I play a map w CZ combined with what I now know about the SSP, I can know exactly where the opponent is.

B.. In theory based on a more robust design, the bear is far more effective than before meaning that red side base detection is much effective than before. In light of all the changes I still don’t think we have meaningful data about the map performance because it seems that at the going rate we keep running into ‘roadblocks’ and making changes. I’m hoping the test case will shed some light on the map performance in a much faster time. At this point, I don’t see a need to test the 688 for any reason. Detection base target for both sides is around 50%.

That’s my two cents… the floor is open…

Thanks
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Old 11-02-2007, 02:26 PM   #17
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I think the CZ SSP was the best thing this scenario had going for it. A detection in a CZ means you get to transition from the "waiting for contact" phase and transition into the hunting phase. I suppose if 2nd CZ contacts don't occur here that makes the hunt a bit easer, but you still don't know your opponents course or speed and there is no guarantee that your opponent will cooperate and go in a straight line for you. There is also a serious risk of counterdetection as you attempt to position yourself to reacquire the target. The 30 mile issue is annoying, but it's all we've got in DW, and the realism problem it presents is somewhat offset by the knowledge that a sub skipper can discover what the CZ interval is by observing other contacts. I think the idea that there is an "exploit" here is a bit exaggerated, especially when you consider that you already have ROE in place that preclude an immediate shot on a contact.

The biggest problem you have in this scenario is that so much of it boils down to a crap shoot. Whether the 688I passes through the zone undetected is about 90% luck, 5% intuition, and 5% player competence. If and when that happens, you might get a decent <10nm knife fight that lasts 5 minutes. After you've geen staring at a blank sonar for 3 hours. CZ at least creates a possibility that there is going to be a contest as an Akula tries to get into position to make an intercept after a CZ detection. You still have to be lucky to get that CZ detection, but at least once that happens it gets really interesting for the next hour. And if you get to take (or are able to prevent) that shot at the end, at least you spent that hour or so earning it instead of waiting to get lucky.
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Old 11-02-2007, 03:16 PM   #18
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I have not read all of Molon's comment, so I apologize if I reiterate something he has said. I also believe that removing the CZ from this mission is a big mistake. Here is why:

The CZ allows red submarines a real chance to detect the 688 themselves, something that is very unlikely in SD. I would even go so far as to say detection of the 688 by the red side at all is unlikely. It also provides red with an small advantage (since they can run slower then the 688 can), to counter the fact that even if the 688 is successfully intercepted, it could still get through. This will help give the mission about a 50-50 chance of victory of each side, reducing it to a battle of skill. The CZ means that the 688 will have to work to get through, but that the Akulas must also work to intercept it, which is something we certainly want.

I have shown above why I believe the CZ is beneficial, but now I am going to go into why the CZ 'bug' is not so big an issue. Range is not the end solution of TMA, in order to get a solution to fire, or to intercept, you need 4 pieces of information about the target: Bearing, Course, Speed. and Range. While the CZ gives you bearing and range, it only lasts a very short amount of time, meaning you can't figure out course or speed. By the time you close that 30nm and regain contact, the 688 has moved considerably, and the data point you obtained earlier is useless, you will need to do a standard TMA solution.

Basically, I think that the CZ gives a huge benefit to the map, and this issue will only cause minor, if any, balance issues.

Last edited by To be; 11-02-2007 at 03:31 PM.
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Old 11-08-2007, 09:17 PM   #19
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(notes)

Map status 110807

Subjects: SSP / base detection calculation / buoy data feed / AI engage / link promotion / run-time / 688 intel / closing


A.. SSP

The SSP has changed to CZ from SD to address issues in playability and fulfillment. CZ now offers the chance of 1st detection of blue force w/o relying on red AI to make 1st contact. CZ also gives 688 options to consider as well. I want to say this fix addresses said issues for both sides. CZ is working as it should at both 30nm and 60nm.

B.. base detection calculation

I figure the base detection for CZ under normal circumstances is how many times each time the map is loaded that human players will come into detection range of each other. The ideal target was 50% for both sides. Over a sample set of 12 MP sessions the base detection I came up with is 60% for both sides, where human intervention (choices made by players) will vary that over the base in real-time. However, base detection for SD is 1/3, ringing in at 30%, which is clearly unacceptable, as we figured in testing. Contributing factors to base detection are SSP type, size of op area, spawn, and possibly use of dynamic group especially combined with RSB. I’d prefer 50% but I figure there are other factors that may be beyond my reach to optimize it further into specification, yet the 10% margin can make up for that.

C.. Buoy data feed

Tests conclude that if the bear is over 30nm from a buoy that has made contact with the 688, the contact can't be processed and therefore the link can’t be promoted to allied forces. However, if the bear is less than 30nm (measured 26.7nm in testing) w/r to the same buoy, the contact will be processed and link will be promoted. Intentions of contact are based on current state of ROE. In testing once contact was made within range to process buoys, the bear intercepted the 688 and attempted to engage the 688 until it was destroyed (multiple attacks). In testing the bear lost contact with an evading 688. With buoys deployed, this tells me that the bear has about a 30nm footprint over the op area while in random search. I tried two different levels of altitude and the data link range was unaffected. AFAIK the data link range mirrors that of the helo and the FFG.

D.. AI engage

The problem we had in the design of conflicting interests is using this script revealed exact locations of opponents that were well outside sensor detection ranges, in this case red side submarines. For this reason I rather not use it for anything. Simply toggling ROE between opposing sides will accomplish the same thing w/o using this script.

E.. Link promotion

In testing, red forces needs to be mindful how and when they use AI for investigating links by means of link promotion. If a link is promoted by means of human influence over AI, it rallies all AI platforms to that area, including AI air and sea. What’s happening here is the AI aircraft (bear in particular) isn’t at maximum efficiency since the speed is reduced for a brief moment of time and the search is more concentrated over a smaller area. If the bear doesn’t make true contact, the search algorithm times out, and he resumes search by means of random search tactic and cruising speed of 400kts. For some reason, if the 688 is detected he will not track the contact even if he is told to using scripting.

F.. Run-time

Run-time has increased by :30, bringing the total time to 4:30. I asked around for 2nd opinions of the ‘usual suspects’ and they didn’t seem to have a problem with it. Also this will allow a little more breathing room in designs since I have more time to work with. However a run-time of 5 hours was a no-go.

G.. 688 intel

I added random intel for the 688 to occur anytime between T = 0 to T = 4.5 hours and based on the actions of the player he may or may not receive this intel. Intel will now include class of red maritime patrol and surface forces. I rather plot a solution to at least one of any of the air or surface platforms but that will cause more problems than necessary. I figure making mention of class is enough and how the player decides to use that for their benefit is up the player.

H.. Closing

With the new changes made to the map to make it playable while in the same time fulfilling for players, once again this has been an awesome learning experience that will carry over into the last two maps and definitely others to follow. At this point, Map A is a wrap. This map is pretty much finished. Minimal changes will convert this map into map 3 of the set, while the 2nd map will need an entirely new design. Also I’d like to revisit conflicting interests but this time with CZ, base detection calculation and increased run-time, but at the going rate that map currently uses SD, which I’m now not comfortable with.

A big thank you to the following for their support in this (hopefully final) phase of testing / optimization:

MaHuJa
Molon Labe
Oneshot
To Be
BobbyZero
Phil21
TLAM Strike
Sonoboy
Admbleeannoying
Foogleman


Last edited by suBB; 11-08-2007 at 10:35 PM.
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Old 11-08-2007, 09:34 PM   #20
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....guess I'll start chomping on the features list and the infastructure of the strike mission. Map C is a no brainer - just increased defenses, some scripting, re-vamp of radio comms triggers, minor stuff like that.

But as it is, I'd say its' already dynamic but I think the size of the op area, CZ 2nd zone, random intel for 688 & 30nm bear footprint increases the in-game dynamics that much more, meaning, based on the choices made by the 688 he could slip through buoys recently dropped just outside the bears' footprint, and either get picked up again later on by another buoy, MAD, found by a playable akula, or AGI, or both... or..

well..

I can't say exactly what will happen... really, anything can happen in one session.
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Old 11-13-2007, 03:44 PM   #21
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Notes - 111307

Subject: Map C creation / Map A change-log

Map A:

complete, need docs & final decision.

Map B:

New design

Map C:

The following is a change-log that I think will convert Map A to Map C, finalized changes pending.

1.. add two udaloys & comms triggers to red playables if 688 is detected / possibly ELF / but need ru voice

2.. add two airborne helix / random search / speed and alt control to use dipping sonar / comms triggers to red playables

3.. set roe wartime both sides

4.. disable VLS tubes on 688, since they were used in map B (strike mission)

5.. mission run-time 4:30

6.. 688 needs to transit south to longitude

7.. RU playable subs will be pursuing the 688 / players will have options to intercept and / or cut off 688 based on intelligence

8.. udaloys w helix will approach from the south In efforts to try and corner the 688

9.. leave bear buoy design as is

10.. remove radio tasking for both sides

11.. replace tasking with XO voice and situation for both sides

12.. change 4:30 time-out as result if 688 does not make it to destination in time.

13.. change 688 win trigger to strike mission successful

14.. re-design 688 win triggering (1 agg, several E/D)

15.. re-design 688 time-out triggering (1 agg, several E/D)

16.. transit distance same as map A

17.. do not use engage scripts

18.. add stealth scripts for udaloys when 688 detected

19.. secure EMCON and have udaloys use passive sensors, but when 688 is detected by either udaloy, turn off EMCON and use active.

20.. change brief on all playables

21.. need RU XO voice.wav (custom audio)

22.. make helo dipping search more robust by adding speed and alt control triggering

23.. mention in 688 brief that VLS tubes are disabled

24.. set udaloy cruise speeds optimized for use of TA across the layer(check notes, if nothing, ask molon for washout data)

25.. remove helix from slava(POI = 0% and remove related triggers

26.. make bear already in area (already in random search) and not dispatched to area

27.. add sprinting triggers for AGI and udaloys / tie them to stealth scripts once detection made

28.. include RU XO voice.wav and XO voice.wav (custom audios w map)

Possibly more changes pending…

That’s all for now..



Last edited by suBB; 11-14-2007 at 03:17 PM.
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Old 11-14-2007, 07:19 AM   #22
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29.. In light of increased red defenses(two helix, two intel ships, two udaloys, two akula 2s, 1 bear deploying buoys and one command vessel) consider adding P3 to blue side to help in the escape of the 688. Make P3 to be dispatched to area & test red AA defenses.
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Old 11-14-2007, 08:59 AM   #23
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Udaloy TA entities

SS1TA Washout 23kts depth -23
SS1TAD1 Washout 18kts depth -183
SS1TAD2 Washout 12kts depth -305

Washout comparison:
Pel: 10kts (actual in game washout begins after 7 kts)
Pel II: 14kts (actual washout begins after 10 kts)
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Old 11-14-2007, 12:35 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon Labe
Udaloy TA entities

SS1TA Washout 23kts depth -23
SS1TAD1 Washout 18kts depth -183
SS1TAD2 Washout 12kts depth -305

Washout comparison:
Pel: 10kts (actual in game washout begins after 7 kts)
Pel II: 14kts (actual washout begins after 10 kts)
sorry, but i also need data on the kara also.

thanks
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Old 11-14-2007, 12:48 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suBB
Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon Labe
Udaloy TA entities

SS1TA Washout 23kts depth -23
SS1TAD1 Washout 18kts depth -183
SS1TAD2 Washout 12kts depth -305

Washout comparison:
Pel: 10kts (actual in game washout begins after 7 kts)
Pel II: 14kts (actual washout begins after 10 kts)
sorry, but i also need data on the kara also.

thanks
It uses the same 3 sensor entitites.
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Old 11-15-2007, 06:31 PM   #26
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30.. consider AI anti-ASM maneuvers for udaloy / kara to increase the chances of survival against ASM attacks / need testing
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Old 11-15-2007, 09:44 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suBB
30.. consider AI anti-ASM maneuvers for udaloy / kara to increase the chances of survival against ASM attacks / need testing
The Udaloy and Kara can handle themselves against 4-missile salvoes just fine.
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Old 12-02-2007, 01:05 PM   #28
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Map A - Notes 120207

Removed – other scripts to try and allow for more variation in OIGD.

Added – UAV as means of providing real-time intel data to 688 but can’t control emission / RS tactic / consider other recon craft.

Added – appropriate comms triggers to 688 regarding UAV

Added – Random tasking update to 688 regarding UAV. Duration anytime up to 2 hours from time of spawn. / xo voice.wav

Added – su-27 interceptors flying CAP north of longitude over command vessel Slava. If UAV violates red airspace 27s will a-burn to obtain visual on promoted link of UAV. Once spotted flankers will engage w AA missiles & guns / violation of airspace will toggle red side ROE also.

Added – appropriate comms triggers to Akula 2s’ regarding UAV.

Added – UAV can be spotted by any red side AI platform and will radio Akula 2s’ when spotted. Chances of being spotted are random by means of RS tactic used for all AI platforms over the area.

Tweaked – 688 transiting distance to 50 nm from < 60nm to try and allow for more variation in OIGD.

Tweaked – arrival times of TU-142 bear, Helix, UAV, SU-27 to try and allow for more variation in OIGD.

Added – fuel reserves to all air platforms to make up for variation.

Fixed – helo stall after link promotion after red side permission to fire

And finally after a lot of work & testing……… (drum roll)


Fixed – TU-142 bear and Helix will now drop depth charges & use DC combined w torpedoes / Helix & Bear alt changed to allow use of DC / Bear & Helix will conserve DC ammo / Bear alt < 164 ft when commencing attack run / Bear speed reduced to minimum of 170 kts while in attack run, 400kts while intercepting contact & patrolling / use of ‘IsDetectionHeld” keeps bear & Helix in tracking mode until 688 is destroyed / Bear & Helix firing solution varies based on 688 noise & number of other detecting platforms & objects(buoys) present at time of detection relative to actual position of 688, more monitoring = more accurate / separate triggers and scripts for use of torpedo and depth charges for both Bear & Helix = event auto, refire 00:00, engage(DC / Torp) for 0 secs each.

Concern – UAV is emitting but very hard to pinpoint. Accurate solution requires a lot of time w/ one detecting platform. Faster, more accurate solutions occur if UAV is detected & observed by multiple neighboring platforms. Oppty is available for a human to make visual on UAV from peri or sail bridge then promote as link. Same applies for emitting Bear. Since both are hard to pinpoint quickly & accurately it shouldn’t be an issue. :hmm:

Other than adding comms triggers on contact made by the UAV & sent to the 688, I hope this should do it for beta release.
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Old 01-27-2008, 05:45 PM   #29
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notes: 012708

MAP A: Complete & Released as beta

MAP B: new design

MAP C: start project / WIP

(thinking back)

Refer to notes posted on 111307 for the list of changes that will convert MAP A to MAP C. Since the situation has escalated over the map set to the point where weapons are hot going into this scenario, you won't need ROE triggers for this map.

DO:

1.. Replace radio comms triggers w/ custom XO.wav for both sides explaining the situation to the commander. May need to find a custom gen_qtrs.wav for red side(check HFRO)

2.. Add red surface (Udaloy) intel update and do not deploy red side asw air assets, as they should already be in the area looking for the 688. Don't forget to turn on EMCON for all ai red side surface but turn off EMCON individually if / when either blue side is detected.

3.. Change win condition triggers, be sure to remove ROE violation triggers.

TEST:

1.. Red side AA capability against playable P-3.

2.. update as needed
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Old 02-25-2008, 04:19 PM   #30
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Notes 022508 - beta 1 of 3 release

Bear speed feedback control - Fixed bear traveling 140kts when cleared to attack and 688 has been located. Now bear will fly at maximum speed towards last known contact, and within close range, bear ramps down to 140kt for better maneuverability. If bear overshoots 688, bear opens distance & ramps up to maximum speed to maneuver for another pass. While on another pass and closing, bear then ramps back down to 140kts and commence another attack run. Feedback control TRUE = while 688 isn’t destroyed && ROE weapons free granted from High Command.

Good catch, molon… two less things to fix in the rest of the map set. Thanks..

Thanks for the run guys (molon, zypher) let’s do it again soon..
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