Topside torpedoes

[John Pancoast]

I can't remember; what year did the u-boats stop carrying these ?

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by John Pancoast

I can't remember; what year did the u-boats stop carrying these ?

these what?

[FUBAR295]

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

these what?

External Torpedoes.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by John Pancoast

I can't remember; what year did the u-boats stop carrying these ?

Hi John if you'd asked me the other night on Discord I would have still had access to my reference materials but as is typical, I moved them into the loft this morning.

Sooooo iirc it was early to mid 44 when the Allies gained air supremacy which meant U-Boats could not stay surfaced long enough to charge their batteries, not to mention the long process of loading torpedoes.

For a more precise answer I'd suggest having a look over at https://uboat.net/

[John Pancoast]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Hi John if you'd asked me the other night on Discord I would have still had access to my reference materials but as is typical, I moved them into the loft this morning.

Sooooo iirc it was early to mid 44 when the Allies gained air supremacy which meant U-Boats could not stay surfaced long enough to charge their batteries, not to mention the long process of loading torpedoes.

For a more precise answer I'd suggest having a look over at https://uboat.net/

Thanks Jimbuna.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by John Pancoast

Thanks Jimbuna.

No problem and iirc the TypeII, XXIII and XXI were the only boats designed not to carry externals.

[John Pancoast]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

No problem and iirc the TypeII, XXIII and XXI were the only boats designed not to carry externals.

[Aktungbby]

the question intrigued me so I did some serious pervitin induced homework over breakfast. Nothing is particularly extant on torpedo storage other than it was dangerous, time consuming and only suited to calm waters; which the winter Atlantic was decidedly not! they key to the myriad aspects of the issue was the closing of the Mid-atlantic Gap. Only low maintenance G7a eels could be carried externally as every other type (G7e's ZaunK's, Foxers ) required high battery maintenance-new fact for me! I'll be more authentic in SH-V!! Also, torpedos in the external containers were susceptible to depth-charge attacks and were often damaged. No astute commander following such an attack would risk the amount of time 'hazarding his vessel' against the futility of a defunct eel lugged inside the pressure hull. For certain, the type XI's wouldn't have wasted the always precious fuel-consuming weight on its capacity for 10 eels stored topside As mid ocean Milch-cow resupply subs got scarcer

 

Ten boats of this type were commissioned:

• U-459, commissioned 15 November 1941, scuttled 24 July 1943
• U-460, commissioned 24 December 1941, sunk 4 October 1943
• U-461, commissioned 30 January 1942, sunk 30 July 1943
• U-462, commissioned 5 March 1942, sunk 30 July 1943
• U-463, commissioned 2 April 1942, sunk 15 May 1943
• U-464, commissioned 30 April 1942, scuttled 20 August 1942
• U-487, commissioned 21 December 1942, sunk 13 July 1943
• U-488, commissioned 1 February 1943, sunk 26 April 1944
• U-489, commissioned 8 March 1943, sunk 4 August 1943
• U-490, commissioned 27 March 1943, sunk 12 June 1944

The Mid-Atlantic Gap is a geographical term applied to an undefended area beyond the reach of land-based RAF Coastal Commandantisubmarine (A/S) aircraft during the Battle of the Atlantic in the Second World War. It is frequently known as The Black Pit, as well as the Atlantic Gap, Air Gap, Greenland Gap, or just "the Gap". This resulted in heavy merchant shipping losses to U-boats. The gap was eventually closed in May 1943, as growing numbers of VLR Liberators (Very Long Range models) and escort carriers became available, and as basing problems were addressed. Increasing availability of escort carriers reduced the hazard of the Gap. After a crisis in March which nearly had Churchill and the Admiralty abandon convoys altogether, the Mid-Atlantic Gap was finally closed in May 1943, when RCAF VLRs became operational in Newfoundland, by which time the Battle of the Atlantic was largely won.

• • Given the decisive 'Black May' of 1943: 18 Uboats lost w/o corresponding damage to allied merchant vessels in the Atlantic; with 43 total due to losses in other theatres, 14 (most from all powerful aircraft) causing loss of experienced crews: especially the junior officers also intended as the next generation of kaleuns, the 'jig was up' in the first semester of '43. Wanze, foxer, Zaunkönig, and radar vulnerable schnorkels could not undo May '43. Döenitz stopping the Uboat campaign pulled all his boats on the 24th of the 'merry' month of May....for the allies-FIDO, Johnny Walkers 'creeping attacks', Liberator B-24's, and escort carriers! von C's ON WAR Rule one: "In all things be 'very strong"; two:"whenever possible increase firepower(numeric superiority-not just technical superiority; three: " Never count on your opponent doing what your plan call for him to do...." for Germany all 3 rules met with: "war is simple but sometimes the simple thing is hard!" My bet is, externally stored U-boat eels began declining in June 1943 when Doenitz resumed his futile efforts...saving the Reich a few RieichsMarks for the Russian front ...pending further investigations of course!

[John Pancoast]

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

the question intrigued me so I did some serious pervitin induced homework over breakfast. Nothing is particularly extant on torpedo storage other than it was dangerous, time consuming and only suited to calm waters; which the winter Atlantic was decidedly not! they key to the myriad aspects of the issue was the closing of the Mid-atlantic Gap. Only low maintenance G7a eels could be carried externally as every other type (G7e's ZaunK's, Foxers ) required high battery maintenance-new fact for me! I'll be more authentic in SH-V!! Also, torpedos in the external containers were susceptible to depth-charge attacks and were often damaged. No astute commander following such an attack would risk the amount of time 'hazarding his vessel' against the futility of a defunct eel lugged inside the pressure hull. For certain, the type XI's wouldn't have wasted the always precious fuel-consuming weight on its capacity for 10 eels stored topside As mid ocean Milch-cow resupply subs got scarcer

 

Ten boats of this type were commissioned:

• U-459, commissioned 15 November 1941, scuttled 24 July 1943
• U-460, commissioned 24 December 1941, sunk 4 October 1943
• U-461, commissioned 30 January 1942, sunk 30 July 1943
• U-462, commissioned 5 March 1942, sunk 30 July 1943
• U-463, commissioned 2 April 1942, sunk 15 May 1943
• U-464, commissioned 30 April 1942, scuttled 20 August 1942
• U-487, commissioned 21 December 1942, sunk 13 July 1943
• U-488, commissioned 1 February 1943, sunk 26 April 1944
• U-489, commissioned 8 March 1943, sunk 4 August 1943
• U-490, commissioned 27 March 1943, sunk 12 June 1944

• • Given the decisive 'Black May' of 1943: 18 Uboats lost w/o corresponding damage to allied merchant vessels in the Atlantic; with 43 total due to losses in other theatres, 14 (most from all powerful aircraft) causing loss of experienced crews: especially the junior officers also intended as the next generation of kaleuns, the 'jig was up' in the first semester of '43. Wanze, foxer, Zaunkönig, and radar vulnerable schnorkels could not undo May '43. Döenitz stopping the Uboat campaign pulled all his boats on the 24th of the 'merry' month of May....for the allies-FIDO, Johnny Walkers 'creeping attacks', Liberator B-24's, and escort carriers! von C's ON WAR Rule one: "In all things be 'very strong"; two:"whenever possible increase firepower(numeric superiority-not just technical superiority; three: " Never count on your opponent doing what your plan call for him to do...." for Germany all 3 rules met with: "war is simple but sometimes the simple thing is hard!" My bet is, externally stored U-boat eels began declining in June 1943 when Doenitz resumed his futile efforts...saving the Reich a few RieichsMarks for the Russian front ...pending further investigations of course!

I also seem to recall that pressures at depth messed with them too.

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by John Pancoast

I can't remember; what year did the u-boats stop carrying these ?

Originally Posted by John Pancoast

I also seem to recall that pressures at depth messed with them too.

I read
up on that too in the course of composing my post; but that had been solved-scandal notwithstanding- prior to the period involved with your question or Jimbuna's time frame. Essentially, I'm interested in finding any actual 'eel' manifest of a June '43 non-ace skippered U-boat outbound for the Gap....'twould shed much insight on the question.

[John Pancoast]

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

I read
up on that too in the course on comprising my post but that had been solved-scandal notwithstanding prior to the period involved with your question or Jimbuna's time frame. Essentially I'm interested in finding any actual 'eel' manifest of a June '43 non-ace skippered U-boat outbound for the Gap....'twould shed much insight on the question.

I think Blair mentioned some info. in his book, but my second volume fell apart recently.

[KriegsMarine]

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

these what?

I guess it's gotta be the year of 1943, maybe after the Black May.

[Aktungbby]

A LITTLE REQUIRED READING: https://digitalcommons.georgiasouthern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1599&context=etd pg. 65! DRUMBEATER HARDIGAN ONLY CARRIED 15 EELS ON HIS TYPE IXB U-123 ON EACH OF TWO PATROLS (7 & 8)TO THE AMERICAN COAST. pg. 147-148: With torpedoes, Hardigan bagged eight ships on each patrol, and three with deck gun fire: a poor performance of an average of two + eels per victim. It gets you a knights cross but does not win wars. It is noteworthy that for whatever reason, only 15 were carried on the 6, 000+ mile voyages
23 December 1941 – 9 February 1942 (Previous to black May 1943) out of a possible 22 maximum; (the IXD could carry 24.) Type IXs had six torpedo tubes; four at the bow and two at the stern. They carried six reloads internally and had five external torpedo containers (three at the stern and two at the bow) which stored ten additional torpedoes. The total of 22 torpedoes allowed U-boat commanders to follow a convoy and strike night after night. KALEUN HARDIGAN WAS 16 STORED EELS SHORT OVER TWO PATROLS: AT HIS 2 EEL PER SHIP 'KILL' RATE, EIGHT MORE ALLIED SHIPS WERE NOT SUNK. REINHARD HARDIGAN DIED AT AGE 105....OBVIOUSLY HE MADE FEW MISTAKES, IE NOT CARRYING A LOT OF TOP SPARES G7a'S IN OPERATION DRUMBEATER.....

[Kapitän]

Standing B.d.U. Order No.305, from 3 May 1943 states:


1. Type VII B, C, D - None
2. Type IX B, C - Normally, none - IX C only with Special Patrol Order, 2 Upper Deck Containers with 2 Torpedoes
3. Type IX D - 12 Upper Deck Containers with 12 Torpdoes

[John Pancoast]

Originally Posted by Kapitän

Standing B.d.U. Order No.305, from 3 May 1943 states:


1. Type VII B, C, D - None
2. Type IX B, C - Normally, none - IX C only with Special Patrol Order, 2 Upper Deck Containers with 2 Torpedoes
3. Type IX D - 12 Upper Deck Containers with 12 Torpdoes

Thanks !