Women are better drivers than men

[Eichhörnchen]

[Sailor Steve]

At least be honest about it. You're not concerned with any real safety matters. You're simply on a vendetta. Has it occurred to you that your constant claims of all the horrible women drivers in your neighborhood without ever mentioning one single male driver constitutes a statistic in itself. You have an axe to grind and you won't let up until you've done everything in your power to prove you're right.

How good a driver are you personally?

[STEED]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

At least be honest about it. You're not concerned with any real safety matters. You're simply on a vendetta. Has it occurred to you that your constant claims of all the horrible women drivers in your neighborhood without ever mentioning one single male driver constitutes a statistic in itself. You have an axe to grind and you won't let up until you've done everything in your power to prove you're right.

How good a driver are you personally?

The mighty Steve has a point, this week I have seen two male drivers not looking where they were going and not indicating as well. Driving standards are falling because in some ways the law is weak. Over the years I have witness dreadful driving from men women young middle age and old, there is no such thing as the perfect driver.

[Eichhörnchen]

No, he's missed the point: I've just been having a bit of fun here countering the ridiculous claim that women drivers are overall better than their male counterparts, with the spurious use of statistics to "prove" it

But if it's become upsetting then I shall close my diary of near-misses (or should that be near-Mrs) right here... I think the spectacular example cited above does plenty to help close this case

For myself, I am a careful driver and for that reason have avoided all prangs thus far. And if you read through the thread you'll see that I've never disputed that there are huge numbers of idiot male drivers out there who are also trying to kill us... but I've said already that this thread has not been about them at all

[FullMetalADCAP]

Eichhörnchen, it comes down to money at the end of the day. Obviously, the insurance companies know that more men drive than women do. And no doubt they use very flawed statistics in a way to generate greater profit for themselves, knowing that more men on the highway, paying more for auto insurance than women, generates even greater profit for themselves.

All this now comes at the expense of discrimination against 1/2 of the human race by making discriminatory and generalized claims that males are worse drivers than women and charging them inflated rates compared to women before they ever begin driving just based on the the genitals between their legs. I disagree 110% with this practice.

The reality is that men and women are not monoliths. Men and women are individual people and each person is different with different attributes and capabilities all their own. Some women may indeed be better drivers than a lot of men. And vice versa, some men may indeed be better than a lot of women.

My older sister had wrecked five times and gotten 2 speeding tickets in just the two years she began driving before me. Our father had bought her a brand new candy apple red BMW. She totaled it the first month she had it. She totaled another car six months after that. Then she had several fender benders. She got tons of warnings also. (Female privilege because cops go easier on women compared to men as I've said before.)

But as an individual person, she was just a horrible driver. So the discrimination against me felt especially harsh when I began driving two years later. When it came time for me to drive, my father offered me my mother's old 1981 Chevy Citation. (facepalm) And it was purple. I sucked it up through gritted teeth and thought, "Better than nothing ... I guess?"

But before I could drive it, I had to be insured. So I went with my father into the kitchen and he pulled out the yellow pages and began dialing insurance companies left and right. Turned out that it wasn't as simple as it had been for my older sister who was insured within 15 minutes over the phone, two years prior. Instead, my father wasted 3 hours of his life and mine trying to find someone to insure me at a fair rate over the phone. Didn't happen that day.

Geico wanted $400 a month for liability alone for a car that was 12 years old at the time and could probably go no faster than 65mph without blowing up the engine. My older sister, with all those accidents and speeding tickets was paying under $150 for full coverage on a much newer vehicle that could easily go 125mph!

So my father said, "So what you're saying is you don't want to insure my son!?" and the agent blatantly responded to my father over the phone, "Yes sir, that's exactly what we're saying!" That was Geico. I've REFUSED my entire life to ever insure anything with them because of that. I'll never forget it, nor will I ever forgive it.

I was devastated. Here I was, an innocent 16 year old boy who had never done anything wrong and I wasn't being treated fairly. I'd been made to feel like I'd done something wrong - for simply being born a male. This meant I still couldn't drive even though I had earned my license and had a perfect score on both my written and driving portion of my exam. My GPA at school wasn't the greatest but it wasn't too bad either. My sister on the other hand had a much lower score on both her written and driving exams and her GPA was never great either.

So a few days later when my father was at work, my mother drove me to an "Insurance Doctor" for people who have had tons of accidents and tickets and cant' get insured. They found me an insurance plan for $275 a month for liability alone, and probably with a very shady insurance company to boot. It was better than the $350-$600 a month offers from all the main insurance companies for liability alone my father was told over the phone. It was the best we could get for me at the time but still way more than my older sister was paying for full coverage insurance on a much new vehicle and with tons of accidents and tickets on her record. And it was were most of my after school bowling alley minimum wage paychecks went towards paying on.

And of course I got mocked at school for having a vehicle dubbed, "The Purple Turtle." (cringe. Head hanging low.)

I think when it comes to auto insurance that each individual person should be judged on their own personal merits and failures - not based on what genitals they have between their legs or flawed statistics that don't tell the whole story. Each kid starting off in life should get the same insurance rate, regardless of their sex. It doesn't have to be a low rate but it should be the same for males and females. Let individual merit decide if an individual person's rate goes higher or lower after driving for so long.

In the US, males are still discriminated against for vehicle insurance. I know that for a fact. They are raising female rates up more now that they are wrecking with the texting and driving stuff but it's still much cheaper than it is for males. But didn't the UK change the law so that it was fair and equal for the sexes? Anybody from the UK around to answer?

[Eichhörnchen]

I'm from the UK but I couldn't answer that offhand... however, I did just find this:

https://www.theguardian.com/money/bl...equality-worse

[FullMetalADCAP]

Originally Posted by Eichhörnchen

I'm from the UK but I couldn't answer that offhand... however, I did just find this:

https://www.theguardian.com/money/bl...equality-worse

Well, I'd say that's fair if they are billing men and women as individuals based on how much they drive compared to other women and men and based on if their vehicle is more expensive than another man's or woman's vehicle.

Proving gender discrimination would be simple. Take a man in the UK and a woman in the UK who are the same age and drive the same exact car, and same exact amount of miles, and both without any driving infractions, and see if their rate is the same. If it's not, there's some sort of gender discrimination going on. But according to that article, their rate should be exactly the same.

The article is just saying that men overall (based on all the individual rates being compared) tend to pay more than women overall because more men are driving more miles than women and driving more expensive vehicles than women also on average. That's 100% fair and I don't see a problem with that. At least it's not like the U.S. where they say, "Oh, you're a male! Well, you'll be punished for that right off the bat because you have a dangler between your legs!"

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Eichhörnchen

No, he's missed the point: I've just been having a bit of fun here countering the ridiculous claim that women drivers are overall better than their male counterparts, with the spurious use of statistics to "prove" it

Maybe I have missed the point. Despite your claim to the contrary, nothing I've seen in this thread would indicate you're having fun at all. In fact to me you seem to be quite angry, and more than a little spiteful.

Originally Posted by FullMetalADCAP

All this now comes at the expense of discrimination against 1/2 of the human race by making discriminatory and generalized claims that males are worse drivers than women...

Funny, I've spent my whole life hearing bad jokes about "women drivers". They've suffered that same discrimination for as long as I can remember, yet I don't recall ever hearing anyone complain about that stereotype. It's only when the shoe is on the other foot that men complain about discrimination.

…and charging them inflated rates compared to women before they ever begin driving just based on the the genitals between their legs. I disagree 110% with this practice.

Actually the difference in the rates, at least where I live, only applies to drivers under age 25. After that the rates are roughly the same. I suspect that this is not discrimination for the simple reason that younger males do tend to participate in reckless behavior. I don't recall seeing a lot of street racing among young women, at least when I was that age. The texting problem might apply more to women than to men, and that may see a change in insurance practices over the next few years. On the other hand during my years of professional driving I saw a lot of odd behavior from both sexes. I've already mentioned my story of the girl parking her car under the back of my van, but I also one day looked at the car next to me at a red light, and the suit-and-tie businessman stopped next to me had a newspaper in one hand, food of some kind in the other, and was steering with his knees.

[Eichhörnchen]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Maybe I have missed the point. Despite your claim to the contrary, nothing I've seen in this thread would indicate you're having fun at all. In fact to me you seem to be quite angry, and more than a little spiteful

Oh I've enjoyed my little thread and I think I made my point. As for seeming angry, well I reserve the right to be angry about people with little regard for safety endangering the lives of myself and my loved ones

[FullMetalADCAP]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Funny, I've spent my whole life hearing bad jokes about "women drivers". They've suffered that same discrimination for as long as I can remember, yet I don't recall ever hearing anyone complain about that stereotype. It's only when the shoe is on the other foot that men complain about discrimination.

A joke in this case isn't actual discrimination. A playfully sexist joke? Certainly. Discrimination? No. And in my life, I've heard the joke used both ways by men and women alike. Women often use the flawed statistics as a means to support their sexist jokes about male drivers. Meanwhile, young men under 25 are being truly discriminated against by an actual practice that charges them more based on the genitals between their legs.

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Actually the difference in the rates, at least where I live, only applies to drivers under age 25. After that the rates are roughly the same. I suspect that this is not discrimination for the simple reason that younger males do tend to participate in reckless behavior. I don't recall seeing a lot of street racing among young women, at least when I was that age.

Here you admit the discrimination for males under age 25 but excuse it based on a very small minority of males who race. Most males do not race, nor are males the only ones who race in cars. A small minority of females also race in cars. To a lesser extent than males, but they still do it. I've even been in high speed chases with women over the age of 25 who had a total disregard for law or public safety.

It's all about individual driving. A person's sex should be irrelevant when it comes to driving and insurance rates. It should be about individual merit. Those who drive good get rewarded with lower rates. Those who don't, get hit with higher rates. Right now the auto insurance industry is actively discriminating males under 25 based on a very small minority of males who drive recklessly.

A big problem I noticed when I was a police officer is that a lot of young males were driving without any insurance at all. Of course, the system wanted to punish these men severely for it. But it always made me feel a bit sick to my stomach since many of them were just poor and probably couldn't afford the jacked up rates for males under 25. It's like they are caught in a catch 22 where they are set up to fail. Sure, driving isn't a right in the U.S. and a privilege. And no, they shouldn't have been driving without insurance. But would so many have been driving without insurance if they were given a fair and equal rate as the other half of the human race? Probably not.

Most children under the age of 8 that are killed via filicide, are murdered by their mothers. Why do the courts still give custody of children under the age of 8 over to mothers in family court in 90% of cases knowing this statistic based on the same logic of billing males more because of the small minority of males who engage in reckless driving?

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Eichhörnchen

Oh I've enjoyed my little thread and I think I made my point. As for seeming angry, well I reserve the right to be angry about people with little regard for safety endangering the lives of myself and my loved ones

But that hardly jibes with "having a bit of fun here".

Originally Posted by FullMetalADCAP

A joke in this case isn't actual discrimination.

Not the joke. The attitude behind it.

A playfully sexist joke? Certainly.

Playful? Maybe. Sexist? Certainly.

Discrimination? No.

You're right. It only constitutes discrimination if some action is taken on it by somebody with power, no matter how little.

And in my life, I've heard the joke used both ways by men and women alike. Women often use the flawed statistics as a means to support their sexist jokes about male drivers.

And in my sixty-nine years I've never once heard women make "men drivers" jokes. Maybe I hang out with the wrong crowd.

Here you admit the discrimination for males under age 25 but excuse it based on a very small minority of males who race. Most males do not race, nor are males the only ones who race in cars. A small minority of females also race in cars. To a lesser extent than males, but they still do it. I've even been in high speed chases with women over the age of 25 who had a total disregard for law or public safety.

Racing was an example, not an entire basis.

It's all about individual driving. A person's sex should be irrelevant when it comes to driving and insurance rates. It should be about individual merit. Those who drive good get rewarded with lower rates. Those who don't, get hit with higher rates. Right now the auto insurance industry is actively discriminating males under 25 based on a very small minority of males who drive recklessly.

Understand one thing. I agree with you completely, and I don't think anyone has the market on bad driving. My only reason for being in this thread is to comment on what I see as a running diatribe that serves no useful purpose. Of course there are a lot of threads here that serve no useful purpose, but this one contains more open hostility than most.

A big problem I noticed when I was a police officer is that a lot of young males were driving without any insurance at all. Of course, the system wanted to punish these men severely for it. But it always made me feel a bit sick to my stomach since many of them were just poor and probably couldn't afford the jacked up rates for males under 25. It's like they are caught in a catch 22 where they are set up to fail. Sure, driving isn't a right in the U.S. and a privilege. And no, they shouldn't have been driving without insurance. But would so many have been driving without insurance if they were given a fair and equal rate as the other half of the human race? Probably not.

If you feel that strongly about it are you working to change it? Are you an activist on that front, or merely venting here? Either way is fine, of course. My own beef, as I've said, isn't with drivers male or female, or against complaining about them, or against feeling discriminated against. My complaint is using the forum as a soapbox for what I actually see as a minor thing. Complain, sure, but for how long?

[Eichhörnchen]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

But that hardly jibes with "having a bit of fun here"

and:

My complaint is using the forum as a soapbox for what I actually see as a minor thing. Complain, sure, but for how long?

To answer your last point first, I thought I'd already made it clear that I was ending my activity in this thread. Accusing me of being "Spiteful" in your previous post makes it personal in my view and coming close to an infringement of forum rules:

[Sailor Steve]

I wasn't accusing you of anything. I did qualify it with "it seems to me", indicating that I could be wrong, as I often am. Yes, I'm a little angry too, and in my case there is no humor involved. As to your second comment, consider the point taken. If I've gone too far, I apologize.

[Eichhörnchen]

^ Accepted, of course

[FullMetalADCAP]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Playful? Maybe. Sexist? Certainly.

Guys tease girls and girls tease guys. Been that way since the beginning of time. While these sorts of jokes are mildy sexist in nature, it's not real sexism rooted in hatred for the opposite sex either. It's a tease. Nothing more. Even Helen F-ing Keller would be able to see that.

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

You're right. It only constitutes discrimination if some action is taken on it by somebody with power, no matter how little.

Well, of course I'm right, I'm not a woman! <---- See, this is a playfully mild sexist joke Steven! I don't hate women, but I sure do love to tease the living hell out of them. Call it "toxic masculinity" if you want to. (You don't work for Proctor and Gamble or sell Gillette razors by chance do you? )

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

And in my sixty-nine years I've never once heard women make "men drivers" jokes. Maybe I hang out with the wrong crowd.

Wow, you're that old? Well, that explains a LOT! Well, you don't have to be an "old bump on the log" about everything just because having sex must be like shooting pool with a rope for you. (I really wish I could take credit for that one but it's an old George Burns joke ) And see, I just made a mild 'ageism' joke against an elderly person! But the joke was invented by a very old person who wasn't afraid to joke on old people or himself for being old. I don't hate old people Steven, I just like to tease the living hell out of them.

And, as far as not ever hearing a woman joke about male drivers, I find that hard to believe. But looking at your 'posts count' on here I have to question whether you hang out with anybody offline? 50k+? Good freaking Lord Steven! You ARE the Internet.

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Racing was an example, not an entire basis.

I am not a turnip Steven. I know what you meant and responded accordingly to what you were saying.

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Understand one thing. I agree with you completely, and I don't think anyone has the market on bad driving. My only reason for being in this thread is to comment on what I see as a running diatribe that serves no useful purpose. Of course there are a lot of threads here that serve no useful purpose, but this one contains more open hostility than most.

I understand MANY things Steven! Here, I think you're reading too much into this and looking to find trouble where no trouble exists. I would however like to see it become more of a picture/video thread showing women who've wrecked vehicles, women struggling to park, or women doing stupid things while driving instead of so much discussion about the stupid things women do when they drive, but personal stories are always a fun read at times also.

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

If you feel that strongly about it are you working to change it? Are you an activist on that front, or merely venting here? Either way is fine, of course. My own beef, as I've said, isn't with drivers male or female, or against complaining about them, or against feeling discriminated against. My complaint is using the forum as a soapbox for what I actually see as a minor thing. Complain, sure, but for how long?

Sharing ideas and spreading information about real forms of gender discrimination (not playful mildy sexist jokes) is about all one person can do. And I have expressed my concerns about it for years to people I've been involved with - including some traffic court justices who agreed that the law wasn't fair but still had to be enforced until it's changed. Changing people's minds about such things is a tough sell, especially when there's money being made off the discrimination at play, as there is in the case of discriminating against young males with higher premiums than females.

I'm also very much against male circumcision and see that as a major human rights violation that's going on in westernized nations. But again, money is being made by many people who are involved with the whole male genital mutilation racket and so getting this form of human rights violation to stop is going to be hard to accomplish when so many people make their bread and butter off slicing and dicing baby boys when there's really no reason to do this to them. I'm equally against female circumcision but that's not really a problem in the U.S. or westernized world but it should be banned worldwide in both forms. But this is a discussion for another thread.