Malaysian Airlines MH317

[Frömmler Vogel]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Feel free to debate and disagree should you feel the need but please refrain from posting veiled comments that could be perceived as insults and or name calling.

It was no veiled comment. It was the thing that walks and looks and sounds like a duck making the noise that a duck makes.

All I'm saying is the Russian comments have not convinced me that the duck I can see if not a duck. It'd that's so wrong then why does freedom of speech exist?

[mapuc]

I try to find the head and the tail in this terrible story, only thing I see is accusation and counter-accusation flying around.

Here is what I know

Last summer an airline was shot down by some SAM-system(BUK 1 to 3(one of these)) It came from somewhere in the eastern Ukraine which was under the control of Separatist who is supported by Russia.

That's what I know.

This is what I don't know

1. Who fired or gave the order to fire the SAM ?
2. Came this SAM system from Russia or was it Stolen from the Ukrainian military ?
3. Was it well educated who was in charge this day and time of launch or was it just some ordinary people who sad there ?

Markus

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by mapuc

It came from somewhere in the eastern Ukraine which was under the control of Separatist who is supported by Russia.

Actually that's the key difference between the two reports, see below:



The Russian report says the missile was fired from Zaroshchenske which (unsurprisingly) is in Ukrainian hands which means the missile would have approached the aircraft from around the 4 o clock position, passed above or below it and the exploded on the 10 o clock position.
The Dutch report indicates a broader area which was in rebel held hands and states that the missile approached the aircraft from an approximate 12-2 o clock position and detonated next to the cockpit at a 10 o clock position.

[mapuc]

Then this is not sure either.

What is sure in this case ?

Markus

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by mapuc

Then this is not sure either.

What is sure in this case ?

Markus

A missile of some sort hit MH17 and it was distributed across the Ukrainian landscape killing 298 people.

[Frömmler Vogel]

That and both sides are blaming each other.

[XabbaRus]

We will never know. Too many agendas.
Though as I said Kerry did say they have a satellite image showing the missile launch but it has never been shown.

The Buk missile as I understand it is supposed to fly up and dive down on its target so it could conceivably have arrived from a 4 o' clock direction dived on MH17 and exploded at a 10 o'clock position. I'm just playing devils advocate here.

It is interesting to note that the Dutch investigation's area is far broader than either that of the Russian's or Ukrainian's.

[ikalugin]

The other factor many appear to forget - at that point in time there was an intermingling of forces, so the parties responsible may not be as clear cut for both possible launch areas.

[Jimbuna]

I can't say I'm surprised at the outcome of the investigation.

MH17 missile 'came from Russia', Dutch-led investigators say

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37495067

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

I can't say I'm surprised at the outcome of the investigation. [...]

True, but this is nothing new.
They have already argued it came from a russian-controlled area months before, without ever giving evidence. Where is the new evidence where it started, and that it really was a Buk missile?

The moment of publishing this... makes me think of Syria and diversion.

But then i am probably spoiled by all those desinformation lies, by all sides.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Yle our public broadcaster told yesterday (and our government confirmed) that according to De Telegraaf Dutch investigators have been conducting missile experiments in Finland. As far as I know no one has yet told why here, but we recently retired Buk missile system which is very close to what is currently used by Russian military. (That system was delivered to Finland in 1996 as debt repayment.) According to Yle those experiments providded evidence of exact type of missile used to shoot down MH17.

Originally Posted by Catfish

True, but this is nothing new.
They have already argued it came from a russian-controlled area months before, without ever giving evidence. Where is the new evidence where it started, and that it really was a Buk missile?

The moment of publishing this... makes me think of Syria and diversion.

But then i am probably spoiled by all those desinformation lies, by all sides.

If not a Buk, what else though?

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by Catfish

True, but this is nothing new.
They have already argued it came from a russian-controlled area months before, without ever giving evidence. Where is the new evidence where it started, and that it really was a Buk missile?

The moment of publishing this... makes me think of Syria and diversion.

But then i am probably spoiled by all those desinformation lies, by all sides.

U are simply disPUTIN' the facts comrade! We shoot down Iranian air liners (USS Vincennes); they shoot down Dutch airliners ie we BUK one they BUK two and that's why we're called 'superpowers' Move along quietly now; nuthin' of interest here-it's an insurance matter...

[XabbaRus]

No surprises there then. But still who are these witnesses? Who was doing the wire taps. If you read the Guardian newspaper website, you would think that the Dutch investigation based a lot of their conclusion on Bellingcat and "open sourced" intelligence.

Why would Russia send a BUK system in with a Russian crew, risking detection, to shoot down an airliner and then run it back into Russia? That is the bit I don't get. That a BUK shot it down I don't dispute, that it was Russian crewed no I'm not convinced and I don't care what Eliot Higgins and Bellingcat writes.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

Why would Russia send a BUK system in with a Russian crew, risking detection, to shoot down an airliner and then run it back into Russia? That is the bit I don't get. That a BUK shot it down I don't dispute, that it was Russian crewed no I'm not convinced and I don't care what Eliot Higgins and Bellingcat writes.

Someone correct me if I remember wrong, but I remember reading tweet from separatist leader celebrating shoot down of Ukrainian military transport (Antonov if I remember correctly). When it turned out that there was no military aircraft down, but an airliner that tweet was deleted.