Malaysian Airlines MH317

Jimbuna · 07-17-14, 12:46 PM

Another Malaysian tragedy

Quote:

A Malaysian airliner carrying 295 people has crashed in east Ukraine on a flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, amid allegations it was shot down.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28354856

CCIP · 07-17-14, 12:47 PM

actually it's just 17

FlightAware ADS-B data tracked it all the way until about a minute before shootdown

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/MAS17

mapuc · 07-17-14, 12:59 PM

This is from Carl Bildt the Swedish Foreign Minister saying to a Swedish Newspaper

" If it is true, then it is "so terrible as it may be, that the passenger aircraft has been shot down."

He believes that it will have very far-reaching consequences if the data on the planet really have been shot down by Ukrainian separatists is correct.

- Not just for the separatists, but also for those who ensure that the separatists get this type of weapon. There are reports that Russia has provided the group with advanced anti-aircraft missiles, more advanced than we have in Sweden.

Foreign Minister Bildt also writes on Twitter that there are signs that Russia has supplied separatists in Ukraine with advanced anti-aircraft missiles."

Markus

kranz · 07-17-14, 01:02 PM

could anyone translate this?
https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hpho...32194311_n.jpg

Herr-Berbunch · 07-17-14, 01:08 PM

Aaaaaaaaaaand the rumour-mill starts.

Russian gloating on social media about shooting down Ukrainian 'cargo' plane, all comments suddenly removed.

Why are civvy airlines routing flights over a such a volatile region?

Biggles · 07-17-14, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herr-Berbunch

Aaaaaaaaaaand the rumour-mill starts.

Russian gloating on social media about shooting down Ukrainian 'cargo' plane, all comments suddenly removed.

Why are civvy airlines routing flights over a such a volatile region?

This was my first thought as well. I hate it when security-related changes are made after tragedy strikes.

Then again, might be too early to determine exactly the cause of the crash. In any case, a real shame and great tragedy for everyone involved.

Dread Knot · 07-17-14, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herr-Berbunch

Why are civvy airlines routing flights over a such a volatile region?

Maybe because nobody expected them to be idiotic enough to randomly shoot at planes flying over their airspace without proper radar confirmation...? Though, one would think with all of the precautions being taken lately, it would be better to be cautious.

Well, whatever the reason, or whoever it was if a launch is confirmed, it seems that it would be insane and almost inconceivable for it to be a Ukrainian launch, because the rebels don't actually have airplanes....that I know of. But then there will be the false flag spin as well.

Biggles · 07-17-14, 01:31 PM

I've read on some other forums that the rebels have some SU-25s at their disposal. Haven't seen anything that confirms this tho.

Oberon · 07-17-14, 01:35 PM

Rumour has it that it was a Buk SAM launcher. both Ukraine and Russia use them as frontline launchers, it's unknown if the Russian separatists operate any, although it's thought that they use Manpads which wouldn't have the range to reach the aircraft at 33,000 ft.

So it's either a Russian, Ukrainian or pro-Russian missile that's responsible for this. It's alledged that the US has satellites that can ID the IR signature of a SAM launch, so they might be able to shed some light on the owner of the missile...alternatively it's entirely possible that an aircraft shot it down with an air-to-air missile, which would put it out of the fault of the pro-Russian separatists.

TarJak · 08-08-14, 06:33 PM

Speculation.

All we KNOW is that the plane was shot down by something. We don't know what yet. Regardless of the findings of any investigations there will always brew speculation about cover ups and conspiracies. I don't see how that helps either the victims our their families.

Skybird · 08-08-14, 06:51 PM

The man has some very good points, and the technical specifications, the photographies (even if now being cleaned by secret services most likely), and the witness reports by that Spanish flight controller cannot be denied or assumed to never have existed. The author forms it all into a very reasonable theory, not into some fantasy-stretching conspiracy story about aliens from Mars. That all together is a bit more than just "speculation". Its a well thought-out and well-founded theory basing on some undeniable facts, and so deserves more careful examination and research than just wiping the unwanted possibility off the table by insisting: "Speculation. Period."

But I am aware of course that this scenario would not be met with cheers and welcomes by many people in the West. It would paint the wrong guys as the bad guys here. It should not be Kiew that is responsible, because the good guys in Kiew should be brought into EU and NATO if Washington has its will, and so they must be the guys in white and shiny armour. The blame must be put on the separatists and on Russia. That is a political demand ordered by Brussel and Washington, and whether reality corresponds with it or not does not interest our glorious leaders.

TarJak · 08-08-14, 07:25 PM

I've not a care which side did the deed. I'm interested in the facts only and not idle speculation or conspiracy theories.

Dread Knot · 08-08-14, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TarJak

I've not a care which side did the deed. I'm interested in the facts only and not idle speculation or conspiracy theories.

Agreed. Especially the crude attempts on some people's part to make this tragedy prove some other crack pot conspiracy theory.

Skybird · 08-09-14, 04:59 AM

Again, show where it is "conspiration theory".

It is, by all what I can say, a reasonable theory indeed, thought out well and covering all known - and now "once known" facts and released materials. He is able to explain it all reasonably and with an easy, simple, elegant theory - and without needing to construct absurd conspiracies and fantasy-enriched nonsense. The scenario sounds perfectly realistic, and it is such that it explains all known pieces of info, in a simple, reasonable and elegant way.

That is much more than you two can show up with: rhetorics meant to prevent a scenario being brought to people's attention and to public discussion that you would not welcome to be true.

If the same theory would end in: it were the Russians, there would be postings like "I told you so, damn those Russians" by now.

I do not claim the theory by the man is true. I say it is reasonable enough a theory, and sufficiently thought out, to justify giving it serious examination and consideration. And certainly more credit than just claiming "it is conspiracy theory, the man should wear a tin foil hat".

TarJak · 08-09-14, 08:02 AM

I don't think I claimed that it was a conspiracy. Only that it was still speculation. Did the author examine the wreckage first hand?

If not then he's a speculator basing his theory on photos. Unless he is a credible aircraft crash investigator with access to original evidence, he's a speculator no matter how well thought out the theory.

07-17-14, 12:47 PM	#2
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	actually it's just 17 FlightAware ADS-B data tracked it all the way until about a minute before shootdown http://flightaware.com/live/flight/MAS17 __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

07-17-14, 01:08 PM	#5
Herr-Berbunch Kaiser Bill's batman Join Date: May 2010 Location: AN72 Posts: 13,203 Downloads: 76 Uploads: 0	Aaaaaaaaaaand the rumour-mill starts. Russian gloating on social media about shooting down Ukrainian 'cargo' plane, all comments suddenly removed. Why are civvy airlines routing flights over a such a volatile region? __________________

07-17-14, 01:31 PM	#8
Biggles Silent Hunter Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Sweden (I'm not a Viking...) Posts: 3,528 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	I've read on some other forums that the rebels have some SU-25s at their disposal. Haven't seen anything that confirms this tho. __________________

08-08-14, 06:51 PM	#11
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,496 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	The man has some very good points, and the technical specifications, the photographies (even if now being cleaned by secret services most likely), and the witness reports by that Spanish flight controller cannot be denied or assumed to never have existed. The author forms it all into a very reasonable theory, not into some fantasy-stretching conspiracy story about aliens from Mars. That all together is a bit more than just "speculation". Its a well thought-out and well-founded theory basing on some undeniable facts, and so deserves more careful examination and research than just wiping the unwanted possibility off the table by insisting: "Speculation. Period." But I am aware of course that this scenario would not be met with cheers and welcomes by many people in the West. It would paint the wrong guys as the bad guys here. It should not be Kiew that is responsible, because the good guys in Kiew should be brought into EU and NATO if Washington has its will, and so they must be the guys in white and shiny armour. The blame must be put on the separatists and on Russia. That is a political demand ordered by Brussel and Washington, and whether reality corresponds with it or not does not interest our glorious leaders. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

08-09-14, 04:59 AM	#14
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,496 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	Again, show where it is "conspiration theory". It is, by all what I can say, a reasonable theory indeed, thought out well and covering all known - and now "once known" facts and released materials. He is able to explain it all reasonably and with an easy, simple, elegant theory - and without needing to construct absurd conspiracies and fantasy-enriched nonsense. The scenario sounds perfectly realistic, and it is such that it explains all known pieces of info, in a simple, reasonable and elegant way. That is much more than you two can show up with: rhetorics meant to prevent a scenario being brought to people's attention and to public discussion that you would not welcome to be true. If the same theory would end in: it were the Russians, there would be postings like "I told you so, damn those Russians" by now. I do not claim the theory by the man is true. I say it is reasonable enough a theory, and sufficiently thought out, to justify giving it serious examination and consideration. And certainly more credit than just claiming "it is conspiracy theory, the man should wear a tin foil hat". __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

07-17-14, 12:59 PM	#3
mapuc Fleet Admiral Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 17,886 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	This is from Carl Bildt the Swedish Foreign Minister saying to a Swedish Newspaper " If it is true, then it is "so terrible as it may be, that the passenger aircraft has been shot down." He believes that it will have very far-reaching consequences if the data on the planet really have been shot down by Ukrainian separatists is correct. - Not just for the separatists, but also for those who ensure that the separatists get this type of weapon. There are reports that Russia has provided the group with advanced anti-aircraft missiles, more advanced than we have in Sweden. Foreign Minister Bildt also writes on Twitter that there are signs that Russia has supplied separatists in Ukraine with advanced anti-aircraft missiles." Markus

07-17-14, 01:02 PM	#4
kranz The Old Man Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Poland Posts: 1,430 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	could anyone translate this? https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hpho...32194311_n.jpg

07-17-14, 01:35 PM	#9
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	Rumour has it that it was a Buk SAM launcher. both Ukraine and Russia use them as frontline launchers, it's unknown if the Russian separatists operate any, although it's thought that they use Manpads which wouldn't have the range to reach the aircraft at 33,000 ft. So it's either a Russian, Ukrainian or pro-Russian missile that's responsible for this. It's alledged that the US has satellites that can ID the IR signature of a SAM launch, so they might be able to shed some light on the owner of the missile...alternatively it's entirely possible that an aircraft shot it down with an air-to-air missile, which would put it out of the fault of the pro-Russian separatists.

08-08-14, 06:33 PM	#10
TarJak Fleet Admiral Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,052 Downloads: 150 Uploads: 8	Speculation. All we KNOW is that the plane was shot down by something. We don't know what yet. Regardless of the findings of any investigations there will always brew speculation about cover ups and conspiracies. I don't see how that helps either the victims our their families.

08-08-14, 07:25 PM	#12
TarJak Fleet Admiral Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,052 Downloads: 150 Uploads: 8	I've not a care which side did the deed. I'm interested in the facts only and not idle speculation or conspiracy theories.

08-09-14, 08:02 AM	#15
TarJak Fleet Admiral Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,052 Downloads: 150 Uploads: 8	I don't think I claimed that it was a conspiracy. Only that it was still speculation. Did the author examine the wreckage first hand? If not then he's a speculator basing his theory on photos. Unless he is a credible aircraft crash investigator with access to original evidence, he's a speculator no matter how well thought out the theory.