TMO campain - how historic?

[Gibus]

Originally Posted by max-peck

It is historical, in a completely random way

Bonjour,

For several years working with TMO, I absolutely do not agree with that.

On the purely historical, TMO does not bring any added value compared to the original game. Fundamental errors were neither corrected nor apprehended. Here are three striking examples among many, in my opinion:
1. Concerning the invasion of the Philippines, all convoys, absolutely all convoys, including the order of battle is completely fanciful, have been left unchanged. There is even some units that were not yet entered service, as the light cruiser Agano.
2. The famous battle of Guadalcanal: I doubt some of you were able to play. A huge shell in the file *.mis stock game program for 11 November 1944. The inconsistency of dates that it is invisible. TMO let this historic operation in the state.
3. In October 1944, the Admiral Takeo Kurita's fleet crossed the strait of San Bernardino with 2 Yamato in its ranks. This is a historical error easy to fix. TMO leave it as is. Say what you want historical convoys, whatever is done will Kurita willingly or by force the strait October 25, 1944, otherwise the game becomes meaningless.
However, Ducimus has done considerable work on random convoys (not historical) game by multiplying the course changes. We must welcome the amount of work. Sometimes these changes of direction can lead to islands ... This was not watched closely.

For the rest, all that is grotesque was left unchanged.

Of course, this is not critical to the adress of TMO but a response to what was written with quote.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Armistead

Interesting, years ago I basically trashed RSRD... I love the historical or known historical play of it, but added numerous sub killer groups through the traffic lanes, increased the hunt times and distance groups will come from and added a mix of other traffic and made most ports impossible to get into, plus redid most the crew ratings which took forever...Not really a mod, cuz since so many files are touched silly to run both

Like I've said many times, if you load RSRDC after TMO you really are not playing TMO any more. You've seen the movie Alien? RSRDC is a bit like that.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Gibus

Bonjour,

For several years working with TMO, I absolutely do not agree with that.

On the purely historical, TMO does not bring any added value compared to the original game. Fundamental errors were neither corrected nor apprehended. Here are three striking examples among many, in my opinion:
1. Concerning the invasion of the Philippines, all convoys, absolutely all convoys, including the order of battle is completely fanciful, have been left unchanged. There is even some units that were not yet entered service, as the light cruiser Agano.
2. The famous battle of Guadalcanal: I doubt some of you were able to play. A huge shell in the file *.mis stock game program for 11 November 1944. The inconsistency of dates that it is invisible. TMO let this historic operation in the state.
3. In October 1944, the Admiral Takeo Kurita's fleet crossed the strait of San Bernardino with 2 Yamato in its ranks. This is a historical error easy to fix. TMO leave it as is. Say what you want historical convoys, whatever is done will Kurita willingly or by force the strait October 25, 1944, otherwise the game becomes meaningless.
However, Ducimus has done considerable work on random convoys (not historical) game by multiplying the course changes. We must welcome the amount of work. Sometimes these changes of direction can lead to islands ... This was not watched closely.

For the rest, all that is grotesque was left unchanged.

Of course, this is not critical to the adress of TMO but a response to what was written with quote.

This deserves a response, because it is typical of what people always think on first knee jerk response as to what is historical.

First of all, modeling exact compositions and behavior to mirror Earth World War II 1939-1945 is not possible in Silent Hunter 4. Let's take the battle group that launched the attack on Pearl Harbor, for instance.

The core of the battle group was the 4 main carriers of the Japanese navy, Kaga, Akagi, Hiryu and Soryu. But SH4 does not have the Kaga available at all, and is also missing one of the other three! You CANNOT produce a tape recorded Pearl Harbor attack group. So the only alternative is to use two or three of the other big carriers. Why? There is no alternative.

Spoiler! In Fall of the Rising Sun Ultimate, we will have all four of those carriers available, beautifully modeled and painted in max-peck RazzleDazzle magnificence! Nine years after SH4 hit the streets you'll finally be able to sink the Kaga.

Anyway, without the availability of the actual ships engaged, there is no choice but to pull out an Agano before its manufacture date to fill out a fleet here and there. That does not render the game "meaningless."

And what is historical? In Earth WWII 1939-1945 the Japanese cobbled together any available ships to send on missions. In our simulation the same thing happens. "Fanciful" components is what happened in reality. "Fanciful" components in the game reflects the actuality of the situation in the historical war.

Were the war to be refought starting in 1939 with the exact same resources available to both sides, battles would be fought in entirely different places by entirely different ships with entirely different results than the tape recorded war. "Historical" means to be subject to the same processes, not to be subjected to a tape recorded replay of completely irrelevant actions, such as a perfect historical recomposition of invasion fleets. History is not predetermined. It is the free will process being created at all times by the personalities of the participants, the resources at their command and the actions and reactions of the opponent. It is a dynamic process and that is the genius of the stock game's campaign. It represents reality, not slavish reenactment.

And when you take the actual battle group that attacked Pearl Harbor, make it sail the same route and launch planes at the date, time and loctation of the attack, what happens. The planes do not attack Pearl Harbor. If they do they act entirely differently than the planes during the war.

The Battle of the Coral Sea is a perfect example. You can put the ships out there in the places and at the times that correspond to history. But they will not then do the same things the real ships did.

So slavish, tape recorded history in the pursuit of not "meaningless" just doesn't work. It's like a chess game. Evey one is set up the same. Every game is unique because it is played dynamically.

My example of a port where a convoy a week was sent out for the duration of the war except for a month when Wahoo lurked outside the harbor comes to mind. In the game, the port will send out that convoy no matter what. It doesn't matter that YOU are out there sinking them. The port doesn't know or care you exist. That's what they did in 1943 so you can feed at will. How historical is that? I'd call THAT "meaningless." Oh, yeah, during the month the Wahoo was offshore the convoys will stop. The port will react to a submarine which is NOT THERE. Historical my fat patootie!

However, part of a simulation is to answer the question "what if I were there in that situation?" And that's where the nature of the mission editor can be useful. Single missions are a terribly underused and mostly terribly designed aspect of SH4. But they are perfect for setting up Kurita's fleet or reasonable facsimile in the San Bernadino strait to see if you can mix it up with them. They will not do the same things they did in the tape recorded war but you can encounter them.

Now, if that happened in real life they would probably just hit the jets and blast by at 30 knots while you threw up your hands in frustration at never getting a shot. But in SH4? Who knows what they will do? It's according to built-in game coding and according to the script made by the mission editor and the skill of the guy who authored the mission.

Perfect reenactment of history is not on the menu though. Attempts to do that are inappropriate. Calling the game "meaningless" because it refuses to occupy the same strictly scripted hell that condemned Silent Hunter 2 and other simulations of the past is very misguided. In fact the genius of Silent Hunter 3 and 4 is that they abandoned the scripted straitjacket and instituted a revolutionary dynamic campaign, which like a true reenactment, results in different actions by different ships at different times and with different results. THAT is truly historical.

The best compromise, which is in itself limited, is to have plugin missions that set up historical conflicts in the game. But once you load it and begin playing, the slavish recording ends and the units, including yourself begin acting dynamically. Gibus' definition of history falls apart as soon as the first ship begins moving.

To relegate Silent Hunter 4 to Gibus' definition of history would necessarily remove your actions as a player. The computer game would entirely cease to exist. You would be a spectator to a television documentary, which itself would be full of error and conjecture. Would that, therefore, be "meaningless?"

[Gibus]

Bonjour RR,

The language barrier has struck a blow and obviously my intention was not interpreted in the sense of my brain.
1. I wanted to respond and show that I believe TMO is not a historical mod for a game that claims to be historical, because TMO does not correct the historical mistakes.
2. I used the phrase "no sense" in this context and example only to support my point.
Cordially.
Gibus

[Gray Lensman]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Like I've said many times, if you load RSRDC after TMO you really are not playing TMO any more. You've seen the movie Alien? RSRDC is a bit like that.

I was under the impression that TMO was more about fixing submarine behavior to be more mechanically realistic (dive speeds, battery op time at various speeds, etc). I was also under the impression that RSRDC was more about reproducing exact historical ship/convoy placement/movement as you described earlier making it a limited/repetitive campaign play thru, then back to TMOs internal random campaign engine with the internal historical inconsistencies retained.

Why the statement "you are not playing TMO anymore?" RSRDC does not make any alterations in TMO's mechanical alterations/behavior that I know of.

Just because RSRDC was adapted to work with TMO doesn't mean that you really are not playing TMO anymore... Sorry, this is one time I have to disagree with you (in reality it's probably the first time, LOL)

It feels more to me that I am playing the RSRDC historically reproduced campaign using the TMO mechanical modifications which is exactly what I was expecting when I set up the combination. Reverse that and try playing RSRDC with the stock sub settings/behaviors and there's no comparison to playing it with the TMO modification. The various subs mechanical behaviors are much more realistically improved using the TMO alterations, to say nothing about the improved explosive graphics over the stock game graphics.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Gray Lensman

I was under the impression that TMO was more about fixing submarine behavior to be more mechanically realistic (dive speeds, battery op time at various speeds, etc). I was also under the impression that RSRDC was more about reproducing exact historical ship/convoy placement/movement as you described earlier making it a limited/repetitive campaign play thru, then back to TMOs internal random campaign engine with the internal historical inconsistencies retained.

Why the statement "you are not playing TMO anymore?" RSRDC does not make any alterations in TMO's mechanical alterations/behavior that I know of.

Just because RSRDC was adapted to work with TMO doesn't mean that you really are not playing TMO anymore... Sorry, this is one time I have to disagree with you (in reality it's probably the first time, LOL)

It feels more to me that I am playing the RSRDC historically reproduced campaign using the TMO mechanical modifications which is exactly what I was expecting when I set up the combination. Reverse that and try playing RSRDC with the stock sub settings/behaviors and there's no comparison to playing it with the TMO modification. The various subs mechanical behaviors are much more realistically improved using the TMO alterations, to say nothing about the improved explosive graphics over the stock game graphics.

RSRDC changes enemy AI, torpedo characteristics, sensors, deck gun, AA gun, eliminates TMO evil airplanes that can sight you at periscope depth....there is almost no aspect of SH4 that the "campaign mod" RSRDC could resist changing!

TMO is a fragile adjustment of environment, enemy AI and your own sensors. RSRDC trashes the whole lot in favor of different settings for all. Yes, RSRDC for TMO has different settings from RSRDC for stock. Why? Who knows? But Lurker made a vampire supermod pretending to be a campaign adjustment. Had it been a stand-alone supermod it would have been an honest effort. It wasn't.

Too bad Ducimus isn't here. He'd tell you TMO is NOT a realism mod at all. It is a difficulty mod. Yes some things were done for eye candy reasons but in general Ducimus bathed every eye-candy possibility in acid. His acid test was "does this piece of eye-candy hurt gameplay in ANY way?" Yes meant it hit the recycle bin. TMO was about more challenging gameplay. Period. Anything else was almost coincidental. I do like the animated fans in the control room!

The worst thing is that Ducimus was driven mad by people complaining about aspects of TMO and requesting changes. He would change them and be confronted by the same complaints from other people. Why? Most of them were also running RSRDC, which overwrote just about ANYTHING Ducimus adjusted with TMO. All his effort was wasted. He quit modding, knowing he couldn't please anybody. I don't think he realized why. RSRDC.

[Gray Lensman]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

RSRDC changes enemy AI, torpedo characteristics, sensors, deck gun, AA gun, eliminates TMO evil airplanes that can sight you at periscope depth....there is almost no aspect of SH4 that the "campaign mod" RSRDC could resist changing!

TMO is a fragile adjustment of environment, enemy AI and your own sensors. RSRDC trashes the whole lot in favor of different settings for all. Yes, RSRDC for TMO has different settings from RSRDC for stock. Why? Who knows? But Lurker made a vampire supermod pretending to be a campaign adjustment. Had it been a stand-alone supermod it would have been an honest effort. It wasn't.

Too bad Ducimus isn't here. He'd tell you TMO is NOT a realism mod at all. It is a difficulty mod. Yes some things were done for eye candy reasons but in general Ducimus bathed every eye-candy possibility in acid. His acid test was "does this piece of eye-candy hurt gameplay in ANY way?" Yes meant it hit the recycle bin. TMO was about more challenging gameplay. Period. Anything else was almost coincidental. I do like the animated fans in the control room!

The worst thing is that Ducimus was driven mad by people complaining about aspects of TMO and requesting changes. He would change them and be confronted by the same complaints from other people. Why? Most of them were also running RSRDC, which overwrote just about ANYTHING Ducimus adjusted with TMO. All his effort was wasted. He quit modding, knowing he couldn't please anybody. I don't think he realized why. RSRDC.

I guess an inspection of some of the files both before RSRDC is added to TMO and after will show the evidence that I will have to see.

However, I have already been sighted at periscope depth in clearer weather using TMO w/RSRDC so that part of TMO is still retained after the RSRDC overlay. I have gotten into the habit of insuring that I dive to 165 or lower if the plane looks as if it will come within 1 mile just because of being sighted at periscope depth. That didn't happen in the stock game at all.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Gray Lensman

However, I have already been sighted at periscope depth in clearer weather using TMO w/RSRDC so that part of TMO is still retained after the RSRDC overlay. I have gotten into the habit of insuring that I dive to 165 or lower if the plane looks as if it will come within 1 mile just because of being sighted at periscope depth. That didn't happen in the stock game at all.

If that is happening you have some mod soup. Lurker HATED Duci's evil airplanes and never would have allowed them in RSRDC. When I asked him about it he was.....er......quite forceful and very colorful in that respect.

I actually consulted with Ducimus and created a mod that restores Duci's evil planes to an RSRDC game. But there are dozens and dozens of gameplay changes in RSRDC having nothing whatever to do with being a campaign mod.

[Gray Lensman]

No super mods other than TMO/RSRDC. Here's my Mod Soup currently:

The 2d6 name change is a weather mod to remind me to roll 2 6-sided die every 24 hours (midnight) to apply or remove the weather mod if you know which weather mod I'm referring to. Doesn't really help the storm time duration though.

However, I did run TMO by itself for a short time prior to adding the RSRDC combination. I could possibly have experienced the plane attack during that time and from that point on I've been pre-empting a repeat of that occurrence but I don't recall exactly when, I just recall the surprise vividly. LOL. and it was totally realistic though not expected. Why Lurker would want to remove it is beyond me? There are documented instances of patrol planes spotting submarines at periscope depth in ideal weather conditions.

I guess when I'm done with my current campaign, I'll rid myself of the RSRDC combo add-on as previously planned and wait until your mod is ready. If you'd like beta testing in particular regarding weather mod testing, I might be interested in some quick non shooting time-compressed weather patrols. I say non-shooting because I'm also currently immersed in a WitPAE game sucking up a lot of spare gaming hours, LOL. WitPAE is a time sponge, Thank God for retirement.