Real Submarine Technology & History Q&A

[Nisgeis]

Originally Posted by DaveyJ576

There are many times in which the water being pumped overboard will be contaminated with oil or fuel. If this is the case, and the enemy is topside, the drain pump operator has the option of pumping the bilge to a holding tank. This will prevent oil from creating a sheen on the surface and giving away the boats' location. The holding tank will be pumped at a later time.

OK, this may be a stupid question, but if you pump to the holding tank, is that full of clean water to start with which is replaced with contaminated water? I'm just thinking that pumping the bilge to an empty tank won't make the boat lighter, so could you lighten the boat and still keep the contaminated water contained? Would you just pump a different trim tank to sea?

[DaveyJ576]

Originally Posted by LukeFF

Now another question for you, Dave: the early patrol reports mention the use of "open sights" on the 3"/50 as an alternative to using the scope when engaging targets (such as when the lens was damaged or fogged up). Are there any pics out there that show what those "open sights" looked like?

Go to the following link: http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS...10-22_pics.htm

Scroll down through the page and you will come across a couple of photos that will show the sights. They are a circular ring with a spider web looking reticle in the center. You will also see a couple of good shots of the telescopic sight being used. Not all of these photos are from submarines. The 3"/50 was a popular anti-aircraft weapon and was used on a variety of platforms.

[DaveyJ576]

Originally Posted by Nisgeis

OK, this may be a stupid question, but if you pump to the holding tank, is that full of clean water to start with which is replaced with contaminated water? I'm just thinking that pumping the bilge to an empty tank won't make the boat lighter, so could you lighten the boat and still keep the contaminated water contained? Would you just pump a different trim tank to sea?

That is not a stupid question at all. It is a tough concept that is actually counter-intuitive. The holding tank that the oily water is pumped to (officially called the expansion tank) is external to the pressure hull and is compensated to sea pressure. It will normally have some water in it. Thus, if you pump something to it from inside the pressure hull, you are in effect lightening the boat. Since oil and water don't mix, the oil rises to the top and the water will be at the bottom. This will effectively hold the oil in the tank and prevent it from rising to the surface. Obviously at a certain point the tank will be full and the CO will have no choice but to pump over the side. BTW, the expansion tank is normally used as an overflow tank when fuel volume expands due to temperature changes.

There was also the option of pumping the bilge into the trim system and putting the water into one of the trim tanks. For instance, if you had flooding aft (which would make you heavy aft) you could pump the bilge to the forward trim tank and thus restore your fore to aft trim. Once again, though, you could potentially be putting oily water into the trim system and if you had to subsequently pump that particular trim tank to sea to lighten the boat, the oily water could give away your presence.

The normal mode of operation for the drain system was to just simply pump the bilges over the side. The expansion tank option was normally only used during the heat of battle when evading. Back in those days, you didn't have tree huggers watching your every move and environmental rules were virtually nonexistant.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by DaveyJ576

Back in those days, you didn't have tree huggers watching your every move and environmental rules were virtually nonexistant.

Yes, it's vitally important that with millions of gallons of petroleum being naturally vented into the ocean due to natural processes each year that we don't allow a submarine to add ten or twenty gallons to that. Could be the straw that broke the camel's back you know!

[DaveyJ576]

Originally Posted by LukeFF

The Navy created the rating of Soundman in 1942 and was merged with Sonarman in 1943. However, these ratings were almost always found on surface ships and only very rarely on submarines, as the Radioman rating was also used for operating the sonar on submarines (I've found only one submarine that had a Sonarman-rated man on board). Correct me if I'm wrong on this, Dave, but that's my understanding of how it worked.

Very true. Radiomen did provide the bulk of sonar operators, but as more boats were commissioned, the Navy turned to other sources. Just about anyone who showed an aptitude (even unusual rates like Yeoman and Ship's Cook) could be sent to sonar school, no matter the rate. Once trained and qualified, they earned the Soundman/Sonarman distinguishing mark which was worn on the sleeve between the elbow and wrist. In some cases, junior officers were trained and stood the watch.

Post-war, as sonar became increasingly important to submarine operations, Sonarmen took over on the boats. The title of the rate was changed to Sonar Technician in 1964.

[Hitman]

Here's another one, and this is not easy

Since the pre-WW1 doctrine called only for submerged attacks, US submarines were not equipped with TBTs at the start of the war, it was later when they were equipped with them, first of all as custom modifications made by the crew (O'Kane in one of his book comments how he got the workshop to put a reticle in a binocular to use it on a custom pelorouse as TBT). My question is, since those binoculars and later the TBTs were not equipped with rangefinders, how did they get range to target for the plot and shot before radar was equipped, or when radar was off to prevent counter-detection? Are there any other means on board fleet boats to determine distance to target aside from radar and periscope stadimeter/telemeter? (Of course I don't count the MKI eyeball here )

[DaveyJ576]

Originally Posted by Hitman

Are there any other means on board fleet boats to determine distance to target aside from radar and periscope stadimeter/telemeter? (Of course I don't count the MKI eyeball here )

You could use active sonar to ping off the target. That will give you a very accurate range. Of course, if the target is escorted, this tends to give away your presence.

If you can see the target well enough to get a bearing and angle on the bow, you can see it well enough to use the stadimeter. I wouldn't count out the Mk 1 Mod 0 eyeball. An experienced CO can make a pretty good guess as to range. Once this is put into the initial tracking solution, the range can be massaged as the solution is refined over a series of observations.

[Torplexed]

I thought I'd ask this question since we had a rash of posts a while back where players were running out of gas short of their home port. They always bemoan their fate (eternally becalmed) and wonder what options would have been available in real life.

Did any US sub ever run dry on fuel during the war and find itself in need of a tow or fuel transfer? My guess is that running the tanks dry would be such a career-killing oversight that a careful eye was kept on the gauge by the skipper to ensure this never happened. But how about battle damage leading to a fuel leak?

[DaveyJ576]

Originally Posted by Torplexed

Did any US sub ever run dry on fuel during the war and find itself in need of a tow or fuel transfer? My guess is that running the tanks dry would be such a career-killing oversight that a careful eye was kept on the gauge by the skipper to ensure this never happened. But how about battle damage leading to a fuel leak?

I am not immediately aware of any such occurrence, but given the nature of submarine operations, it is at least possible. Consider this though: the CO is not the only one keeping an eye on the "gas gauge". The XO, the Engineering Officer, and at least 2-3 chiefs and 1st classes are all carefully watching fuel usage. Tanks are sounded daily and the fuel state is reported to the captain. It is not like driving your car where only one person is watching the gas gauge. With so many people tracking this issue, short of the battle damage that you mentioned, it is very unlikely that the tanks will run dry.

I disagree with the notion that this would be an immediate career killer for a captain. Like everything else in the navy, it would depend on circumstances. One of the worst things you can do to a U.S. naval vessel is run it aground. Dave McLintock ran the USS Darter (SS-227) aground off Palawan and the boat was lost. But not only was the crew awarded the Navy Unit Commendation, but McLintock and the entire crew were transferred to a new boat. Why? Because the Darter was in the midst of an aggressive and well executed attack against IJN fleet units when she ran aground. In addition, wartime considerations are a lot different from peacetime. If McLintock had been entering San Diego harbor in 1947 and this occurred, he would have been hung from the highest yardarm (figuratively speaking, of course).

The same thing applies to running out of fuel. If you go dry because the CO and the crew were incompetent and forgot about it, then you are done. The CO will probably wind up commanding a weather station in Greenland. But if Slade Cutter or Gene Fluckey run out of fuel because they are chasing and sinking ships, then the worst they can probably expect is a butt chewing from Lockwood and some good natured ribbing back at the Royal Hawaiian.

I also heartily disagree with how the game handles this situation. Do you honestly think that SubPac would just write off a fleet submarine and the entire crew just because they ran out of fuel? Hardly. Another boat or fleet unit would be diverted for a tow or to transfer enough fuel to get the boat to the nearest base. Running dry is also probably going to happen on the way back from patrol and thus you will be fairly near your homeport and in reasonably safe waters.

There has got to be a way to correctly model this in the game. Just before you run out of fuel, you send a message and a fleet unit is diverted to assist. Once you get back you lose a bunch of your points and maybe even get relieved if you didn't sink any (or enough) ships. Is this doable? Maybe you could call it "Davey's Realistic Running Out of Gas Mod"!

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by DaveyJ576

There has got to be a way to correctly model this in the game. Just before you run out of fuel, you send a message and a fleet unit is diverted to assist. Once you get back you lose a bunch of your points and maybe even get relieved if you didn't sink any (or enough) ships. Is this doable? Maybe you could call it "Davey's Realistic Running Out of Gas Mod"!

I think that would be a very nice and realistic mod for this game. Perhaps you would lose all your renown points if this happens. Good Idea

[Torplexed]

Thanks again for the comprehensive response Davey.
It does seem odd that SH4 doesn't cover for this in some way. The ironic thing is there are numerous historical instances of U-Boats coming close to running dry and having to wait mid-ocean for a tanker or another U-boat to show up so they can re-fuel, and yet SH3 has a return to base free button so you never have to worry about it. The game was eventually modded to include tankers and milchkuhs, but you can still use the 'teleport home' function if you wish.

I guess it's possible that this features spoiled a lot of players who transferred to SH4. Still, assuming you're not too far behind enemy lines it's seems an oiler or tender could be dispatched your way.

@ Platapus...well I'll settle for losing half renown. At least the sub is still intact.

[Rip]

Originally Posted by LukeFF

To add to this: the Navy created the rating of Soundman in 1942 and was merged with Sonarman in 1943. However, these ratings were almost always found on surface ships and only very rarely on submarines, as the Radioman rating was also used for operating the sonar on submarines (I've found only one submarine that had a Sonarman-rated man on board). Correct me if I'm wrong on this, Dave, but that's my understanding of how it worked.

Much the same way as EW trained personel on modern boats are rated ET and group in with the navigation and radar trained techs. Although we seemed to often qualify radio watchstations as well since we had the same security clearances. Funny to think that at one time operations didn't revolve around the sonar room.

[LukeFF]

Originally Posted by DaveyJ576

Go to the following link: http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS...10-22_pics.htm

Scroll down through the page and you will come across a couple of photos that will show the sights. They are a circular ring with a spider web looking reticle in the center. You will also see a couple of good shots of the telescopic sight being used. Not all of these photos are from submarines. The 3"/50 was a popular anti-aircraft weapon and was used on a variety of platforms.

Thanks!

[LukeFF]

Dave,

I know all boats were different, but, in general, how were the duty assignments handled for the diesel compartments? I have read that there were typically two men on watch in each compartment at a time. Having a look at real fleet sub rosters and taking into account the machinists needed for control room duties, this seems to be right. By my calculations, these were the typical assignments:

Control Room: 1 auxiliaryman and 1 man at the trim manifold per watch
Diesels: 2 men in each compartment per watch, plus one senior (i.e., 1C or CPO) in charge per watch.

Is this how it worked? If so, would the two men in each diesel compartment typically be a junior (e.g., a Fireman or third class machinist) and a senior? (e.g., a 2C or 1C)? What about the control room? What rates were typical there?

[Rip]

I wonder did they have a watchbill back then? I know now that is how watchstations were assigned and you assigned to a specific watch. The COB would right names into the blanks for each required watch and post it. Always a crowd in the crew's mess trying to get a look at it shortly after the maneuvering watch would secure. Some would find they were port/starboard if there was a lack of people qualified for a watchstation and three sections couldn't be supported. You would also find your battle stations and damage control assignements.