Shark tactics?

CCIP · 04-04-11, 09:05 PM

I've tried out a couple of the ACTUV variants so far, and I just had to go with the Shark version, which so far feels like the most challenging to me. Which of course makes it a difficult one!

Its HF sonar is very limited, both in range and speed at which it can be used, and while the MF sonar coverage is good, you have to really plan your sweeps. More importantly, if you want to close on a target quickly, you have to go 'blind' on both sonars for a while. Even more importantly, the SSK can technically outrun the speed at which sonar can be used, which means that to even maintain track sometimes, you have to make bursts of speed virtually blindly.

So far it's been a real dash-stop-ping-turn-ping-dash sort of vehicle - not very subtle!

So, any suggestions on how this one can be made to play nice?

Gargamel · 04-04-11, 09:40 PM

I'm trying to install the game now, so I'm not quite sure on the specifics of it yet, so I'm going to through this out there....

Maybe you need to shift you paradigm a bit?

We're so used to playing subsims where stealth is key, and in this, we don't care. So what if they shoot us out of the water? we're unmanned. Who cares about subtle?

CCIP · 04-04-11, 09:47 PM

I agree, I think I'm trying to think of this from a sub's perspective a bit much (and this also goes with the disclaimer that while I know a bunch about modern subs in theory, my 'practice' is rusty - last modern sub game I played was 688i, and even there I relied on a lot of autocrew help. Which is actually about enough "training" for this highly-automated gadget). But stealth aside, you do have to maintain steady contact - and that "fictional SSK" in the game is one dodgy and swift opponent to keep up with sometimes. So stealth aside, there's the practical concern of staying on his back. And I suspect he does react to your moves and bursts, not to mention pinging. Let's not forget, your job here is different from a sub - it's to stick to this guy like a leech, and the Shark's obvious blind spots make that a challenge.

I actually am starting to suspect that Shark is the most likely "real ACTUV" - i.e. its sensors are probably much closer to what's really likely to be deployed. Gator, by comparison, is pretty much "easy mode" with its all-seeing long-range HF sonar.

Krauter · 04-04-11, 09:54 PM

I'm not really familiar with Modern ASW Warfare.. all my subsim experience is in either a Gato, Type 9 or Type VII.

Because of this, the difference between Narrow Band, High Frequence, Low Frequency, Medium Frequency Sonars is zero for me. I have not a clue what they're individually used for, so bear that in mind when I comment

As you say your contact is an SSK, thus meaning he's a diesel electric submarine, could you not try to keep within the general vicinity of the submarine and wait until he snorkels to recharge his batteries? I'm not sure if there's a specific frequency of detecting those sounds at long range, but I presume a snorkelling submarine is pretty loud, not to mention susceptible to being detected by radar (Does ACTUV have radar?)

moose1am · 04-05-11, 08:52 AM

The future is fuel cell submarines that don't need to surface very often now. They can stay underwater for long periods of time and don't need oxygen to run diesel generators to recharge the batteries. They make their own electricty by taking sea water and splitting the oxygen from the hydrogen and storing that on board the sub. Then they use the fuel cells to recombine the oxygen and hydrogen to produce water and electricity. That's the modern enemy of the future and they are hear today. They have little or no moving parts in the power plants. IE they are very very quiet and still very dangerous to surface shipping.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krauter

I'm not really familiar with Modern ASW Warfare.. all my subsim experience is in either a Gato, Type 9 or Type VII.

Because of this, the difference between Narrow Band, High Frequence, Low Frequency, Medium Frequency Sonars is zero for me. I have not a clue what they're individually used for, so bear that in mind when I comment

As you say your contact is an SSK, thus meaning he's a diesel electric submarine, could you not try to keep within the general vicinity of the submarine and wait until he snorkels to recharge his batteries? I'm not sure if there's a specific frequency of detecting those sounds at long range, but I presume a snorkelling submarine is pretty loud, not to mention susceptible to being detected by radar (Does ACTUV have radar?)

TLAM Strike · 04-05-11, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moose1am

The future is fuel cell submarines that don't need to surface very often now. They can stay underwater for long periods of time and don't need oxygen to run diesel generators to recharge the batteries. They make their own electricty by taking sea water and splitting the oxygen from the hydrogen and storing that on board the sub. Then they use the fuel cells to recombine the oxygen and hydrogen to produce water and electricity. That's the modern enemy of the future and they are hear today. They have little or no moving parts in the power plants. IE they are very very quiet and still very dangerous to surface shipping.

The fuel cells still need diesel engines (or other power source) to get the energy to split H from H2O to charge the cells

Fuel cells are more like super batteries for low speed operations. Batteries are still useful for high speed operations since they can dump a lot of charge to the E Motors quickly.

LoBlo · 04-04-11, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCIP

II actually am starting to suspect that Shark is the most likely "real ACTUV" - i.e. its sensors are probably much closer to what's really likely to be deployed. Gator, by comparison, is pretty much "easy mode" with its all-seeing long-range HF sonar.

Yeah, the wide range of sonar capabilities is sortof baffling... how can active sonar have such widely variable speed/range capabilities... does this really simulate reality?...

... of course no one will ever tell.

Gargamel · 04-04-11, 10:11 PM

No idea what I did, but I just used Gator on cat and Mouse to get a score just shy of 10k.

Really, TBH, I have no clue how to run this. Anybody got any good tips for this engine? Or should I peek over at the DW forum for a noob guide?

Nevermind.... found the manual.....

CCIP · 04-04-11, 10:54 PM

World of difference between the sub's response to the Gator creeping in and the tactics necessitated by the Shark! In the 2nd mission, the night one, with the Gator I've been able to stay at low speed and follow the sub at close range with impunity while it continued snorting along happily on what seemed to be its general course from the start, with only regular turns. So it never even got wind of me for a whle, while I had it on not only HF sonar but also radar and visual.

With the shark, I have to ping to find the sub. It immediately stopped snorting, went deep, and turned about 130 degrees from its original course, eventually losing me. Never even got to the HF range...

Jamesrbird · 04-07-11, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoBlo

Yeah, the wide range of sonar capabilities is sortof baffling... how can active sonar have such widely variable speed/range capabilities... does this really simulate reality?...

... of course no one will ever tell.

Hello, First time poster.

The various types of sonar exist because, based on the frequency of sound, you get various performance on Sonar.

Generally, the lower the frequency of sound, the farther the sound can travel in water before attenuating below usefull levels. Inversly, the higher frequency of sound, the better the resolution of the data obtained from the sonar. Thus, MF Sonar has pretty good range, but does not give you great data clarity (generally just contact bearing and range). High frequency sonar can have sufficent resolution to allow for a level of imaging (which is why side scan sonars used in underwater survey use this range), but they are only useful for very short ranges.

As for the directionality of sonars in the game, that is realistic. a Transducer element is directional, so, to gain 360 coverage, you will need multiple transducers. Also, The higher the frequency of the sonar, the smaller the transducer that is required to produce a coherent beam, so that plays in to the selection of frequency.

As for HF sonar stealth, I think that is also likely realistic. Submarines rely on passive sonar for detection, so their arrays would be focused on frequencys that propogate well in the water. HF sonar frequencys are so high as to not be particularly usefull for passive sonar to listen to because the noise would not travel very far from the sound source, so they are probably not listened for

Gargamel · 04-07-11, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesrbird

Hello, First time poster.

The various types of sonar exist because, based on the frequency of sound, you get various performance on Sonar.

Generally, the lower the frequency of sound, the farther the sound can travel in water before attenuating below usefull levels. Inversly, the higher frequency of sound, the better the resolution of the data obtained from the sonar. Thus, MF Sonar has pretty good range, but does not give you great data clarity (generally just contact bearing and range). High frequency sonar can have sufficent resolution to allow for a level of imaging (which is why side scan sonars used in underwater survey use this range), but they are only useful for very short ranges.

As for the directionality of sonars in the game, that is realistic. a Transducer element is directional, so, to gain 360 coverage, you will need multiple transducers. Also, The higher the frequency of the sonar, the smaller the transducer that is required to produce a coherent beam, so that plays in to the selection of frequency.

As for HF sonar stealth, I think that is also likely realistic. Submarines rely on passive sonar for detection, so their arrays would be focused on frequencys that propogate well in the water. HF sonar frequencys are so high as to not be particularly usefull for passive sonar to listen to because the noise would not travel very far from the sound source, so they are probably not listened for

I would assume most of us are familiar, at least the basics of sonar technology, but if not, that was a good primer.

But what I think he meant was why the weird combination of sensors? Some of the models have long range 360' MF, and crappy HF, while others have no MF and Long range, High speed 360' HF.

I really think these are proposals from the contractors bidding to build the drone, and SCS was tasked with coming up with AI tactics for each one.

My question then is, why couldnt they just build a bigger platform, and through the best of each sensor on it? Or at least a compromise of what we want. (LR High speed MF w/ a Mid range mid speed HF).

04-04-11, 09:05 PM	#1
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	Shark tactics? I've tried out a couple of the ACTUV variants so far, and I just had to go with the Shark version, which so far feels like the most challenging to me. Which of course makes it a difficult one! Its HF sonar is very limited, both in range and speed at which it can be used, and while the MF sonar coverage is good, you have to really plan your sweeps. More importantly, if you want to close on a target quickly, you have to go 'blind' on both sonars for a while. Even more importantly, the SSK can technically outrun the speed at which sonar can be used, which means that to even maintain track sometimes, you have to make bursts of speed virtually blindly. So far it's been a real dash-stop-ping-turn-ping-dash sort of vehicle - not very subtle! So, any suggestions on how this one can be made to play nice? __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

04-04-11, 09:40 PM	#2
Gargamel Lucky Sailor Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Rome Posts: 4,272 Downloads: 81 Uploads: 0	I'm trying to install the game now, so I'm not quite sure on the specifics of it yet, so I'm going to through this out there.... Maybe you need to shift you paradigm a bit? We're so used to playing subsims where stealth is key, and in this, we don't care. So what if they shoot us out of the water? we're unmanned. Who cares about subtle? __________________ Luck is a residue of Design.

04-04-11, 09:47 PM	#3
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	I agree, I think I'm trying to think of this from a sub's perspective a bit much (and this also goes with the disclaimer that while I know a bunch about modern subs in theory, my 'practice' is rusty - last modern sub game I played was 688i, and even there I relied on a lot of autocrew help. Which is actually about enough "training" for this highly-automated gadget). But stealth aside, you do have to maintain steady contact - and that "fictional SSK" in the game is one dodgy and swift opponent to keep up with sometimes. So stealth aside, there's the practical concern of staying on his back. And I suspect he does react to your moves and bursts, not to mention pinging. Let's not forget, your job here is different from a sub - it's to stick to this guy like a leech, and the Shark's obvious blind spots make that a challenge. I actually am starting to suspect that Shark is the most likely "real ACTUV" - i.e. its sensors are probably much closer to what's really likely to be deployed. Gator, by comparison, is pretty much "easy mode" with its all-seeing long-range HF sonar. __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

04-04-11, 10:11 PM	#8
Gargamel Lucky Sailor Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Rome Posts: 4,272 Downloads: 81 Uploads: 0	No idea what I did, but I just used Gator on cat and Mouse to get a score just shy of 10k. Really, TBH, I have no clue how to run this. Anybody got any good tips for this engine? Or should I peek over at the DW forum for a noob guide? Nevermind.... found the manual..... __________________ Luck is a residue of Design.

04-04-11, 10:54 PM	#9
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	World of difference between the sub's response to the Gator creeping in and the tactics necessitated by the Shark! In the 2nd mission, the night one, with the Gator I've been able to stay at low speed and follow the sub at close range with impunity while it continued snorting along happily on what seemed to be its general course from the start, with only regular turns. So it never even got wind of me for a whle, while I had it on not only HF sonar but also radar and visual. With the shark, I have to ping to find the sub. It immediately stopped snorting, went deep, and turned about 130 degrees from its original course, eventually losing me. Never even got to the HF range... __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)