Pre '43 Torpedos

[Arclight]

You can't really expect people playing a game for their enjoyment to just play dumb though. Even with the benefit of hindsight the Mk14 is horribly unreliable (at least from what I recall playing with RFB), and running it on the lower speed doesn't do much to improve your odds of even hitting something in the first place.

I have been willing to put up with the Mk14 knowing that it is how it was. But I reckon seeing every single shot fail would be too much frustration to deal with. Would be for me, think it would be for most.

[BigWalleye]

Originally Posted by Arclight

You can't really expect people playing a game for their enjoyment to just play dumb though. Even with the benefit of hindsight the Mk14 is horribly unreliable (at least from what I recall playing with RFB), and running it on the lower speed doesn't do much to improve your odds of even hitting something in the first place.

I have been willing to put up with the Mk14 knowing that it is how it was. But I reckon seeing every single shot fail would be too much frustration to deal with. Would be for me, think it would be for most.

"Realism isn't about the settings. It's about how you play the game." -Rockin' Robbins

There are mods that change the torpedo failure probability. Or you can just unclick "Dud Torpedoes" in the Gameplay Options. It's your game. You can play it any way you want and no one will say you are doing it wrong.

But please don't imply that no one would play with the historical failure rates. People do. All the time. And please don't imply that those who do are "playing dumb." They just want something different from the game than you do.

[ikalugin]

At least now people know how Soviets felt about the USET80s during the cold war...

[Arclight]

Originally Posted by BigWalleye

"Realism isn't about the settings. It's about how you play the game." -Rockin' Robbins

There are mods that change the torpedo failure probability. Or you can just unclick "Dud Torpedoes" in the Gameplay Options. It's your game. You can play it any way you want and no one will say you are doing it wrong.

But please don't imply that no one would play with the historical failure rates. People do. All the time. And please don't imply that those who do are "playing dumb." They just want something different from the game than you do.

Didn't imply no one would. And pretending to lack certain knowledge is the definition of playing dumb; there's no negativity implied there.

Not really sure what you're defensive about.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by Arclight

Nothing but headaches with the Mk14 those early years.

Ironically that perfect shot ends up being the worst possible shot to take. Iirc you get (marginally) better odds setting them to low running speed and decreasing the angle of impact. Don't use the magnetic pistol at all, just doesn't work. They tend to run too deep as well, best just set them to run shallow.

back to game and assuming you are using the RFB dud file (stock and TMO are different), as Arclight points out, low speed and shallow angles help, so does (ironically) using the magnetic pistol rather than the impact pistol. However, set your torp depth at exactly keel depth.

easiest way to test it out is on the Mogami CA in the training scenario.

[BigWalleye]

Originally Posted by Arclight

Not really sure what you're defensive about.

Since I don't play SH4, I'm not defensive about anything. But you came on rather strong that the problem you had with the high probability of torpedo malfunctions was one that everyone would have:

Would be for me, think it would be for most.

Not everyone plays the way you do. Maybe not even most people. I don't know how many do and I doubt that you do. It's probably best not to generalize too much from your own personal preferences, that's all.

[Arclight]

I was rather carefull stating it as opinion rather than fact, but fair enough.

Now I do really wonder where most people draw the line though, with regards to the reality vs realism thing. As I mentioned, I don't have problems ticking all the realism settings the game offers me, but I still use the benefit of hindsight to at least get some form of reliability from the Mk14.

It's not even that I mind the problems of the Mk14 itself per se, it's the hours going into all the patrols leading to reliable torpedoes in '43. For me a lot of that would feel wasted without anything to show for it.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Arclight

You can't really expect people playing a game for their enjoyment to just play dumb though.

I don't. I was just pointing out that people were giving all kinds of advice on how to beat the game using information they didn't have. What they do with your information, or mine, is their business.

But I reckon seeing every single shot fail would be too much frustration to deal with. Would be for me, think it would be for most.

Oh, I admit I'm the odd one. I'm the guy who smiles about coming home with empty patrols in SH3. I think it's because I've been playing sub sims for almost 30 years, and just playing the game lost its appeal long ago. These days I enjoy the frustration in ways most people don't understand.

Originally Posted by BigWalleye

Or you can just unclick "Dud Torpedoes" in the Gameplay Options.

I'm surprised no one suggested that before. If you're going to fiddle with it, why not do it right?

[BigWalleye]

Originally Posted by Arclight

...I still use the benefit of hindsight to at least get some form of reliability from the Mk14.

IMO, there is nothing inappropriate about using your historical knowledge, particularly of the torpedo problem, after the first couple of months of the war. From what I have read, by about mid-42 information about the problem (and about IJN ASW tactics) was being pretty widely shared at the Royal and the Gooneyville Lodge. Might be hard to suppress your hindsight enough in December 41, but a couple of months later, it seems to have been a hot topic wherever crews got together. The officers have their stories, but I wouldn't be surprised if torpedomen shared their techniques for disarming the magnetics without leaving traces. It wasn't that big a community, and they all congregated in a couple of places.

I completely agree with Steve. There were plenty of dry patrols in RL. I like the historical accuracy. I like coming home with little or no result and wondering if it was me or the fish that failed. It gives me incentive to go out and try harder next time. (Fortunately, the game does not subject me to a "motivational" debrief by Onkel Karl after such a patrol.) But then, I'm definitely an "outlier."

[Threadfin]

I agree with everything you wrote. Good post.

[Bilge_Rat]

Regarding historical knowledge, if you read, for example, Blair's "Silent Victory", you see that as early as the first patrols in dec. 41 and jan. 42, returning skippers knew that there was a problem with the magnetic detonators and that torpedoes appeared to be running too deep.

It also seems that the word was passed around pretty quickly around the service and that many skippers informally took steps while on patrol to minimise the problems, such as using the impact pistol or setting the depth more shallow. It also seems many fudged their patrol reports so they would not run into trouble with HQ which refused to acknowledge the problems.

Apparently, it was only the issue with impact pistols hitting a 90 degrees that was not common knowledge before the summer of 1943.

[Threadfin]

That's right, it was only to keep martinets like Bob English happy that skippers had to fudge the reports. In Silent Victory, Blair said of one skipper who had wrote about disabling the magnetc exploder, that other skippers though him a fool for doing so. So they were obviously doing so, but not writing it up.

The torpedo fiasco was criminal really, and in retrospect it is unfathomable that it occurred at all. Guys like English (but he died in a plane crash) and Spike Blandy should have been charged criminally in my opinion for the inertia and obdurance they displayed. Senior level staffers were on the whole not very good at their jobs, with exceptions such as men like Dick Voge. But in general, submarine staffs had little to be proud of.