US Politics Thread 2016-2020

[Méo]

Originally Posted by August

"Jobs that nobody wants" is a myth. I don't care where you are from if you are hungry enough there is no job too dirty or underpaid.

So whether it is U.S. or Canada, it's clear that there too many people that are not hungry enough...

Or maybe they are not enough to fill the gap?

[August]

Originally Posted by Méo

So whether it is U.S. or Canada, it's clear that there too many people that are not hungry enough...

Or maybe they are not enough to fill the gap?

Says who? I think this whole too good for the job concept is a bunch of bull. There is no legal job in this country that is so bad that only starving refugees will accept it. Prove me wrong.

[Rockstar]

I'll say it again. Open borders, global economy, and the push for universal health care does, in my opinion, have much to do with the National Security Study Memorandum 200.

Thirteen countries are named in the report as particularly problematic with respect to US security interests: India, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Indonesia, Thailand, the Philippines, Turkey, Nigeria, Egypt, Ethiopia, Mexico, Colombia, and Brazil. The countries are projected to create 47 percent of all world population growth.

[Méo]

Originally Posted by August

Prove me wrong.

Originally Posted by August

"Jobs that nobody wants" is a myth.

I would like to see you elaborate on your ''myth'' to many U.S. farmers.

And I wonder why this has been created a long time ago...

The H-2A temporary agricultural program establishes a means for agricultural employers who anticipate a shortage of domestic workers to bring non-immigrant foreign workers to the U.S. to perform agricultural labor or services of a temporary or seasonal nature.[1] In 2015 there were approximately 140,000 total temporary agricultural workers under this visa program. Terms of work can be as short as a month or two or as long as 10 months in most cases, although there are some special procedures that allow workers to stay longer than 10 months.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-2A_visa

---

The reality is that reports of deportations has farmers scared like I’ve never seen before.

“If they just stopped contributing to the workforce, we’d have a major crisis,”

https://www.theatlantic.com/business...ations/529008/

[August]

Originally Posted by Méo

I would like to see you elaborate on your ''myth'' to many U.S. farmers.

A shortage of workers does not equal "nobody wants the job". We have worker shortages in well paying high tech fields too and it's about profit.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy...ech-worker-sho

The Bogus High-Tech Worker Shortage: How Guest Workers Lower US Wages

And I wonder why this has been created a long time ago...

Because some employers find it easier to oppress foreign workers than domestic ones.

For example:

The use of migrant workers in the US seafood supply chain has led to the creation of exploitative conditions that are equivalent to forced labor, according to a report released on Wednesday.
The report was released by the National Guestworker Alliance (NGA) and is based on previous findings as well as interviews with 126 seafood processing workers in New Bedford, Massachusetts, and a range of in-depth case studies.
In order to succeed in a highly competitive global market, US seafood processors have increasingly come to rely on temporary labor. Such workers include H-2B visa laborers as well as undocumented workers. Their immigration status makes these workers vulnerable to exploitation. The NGA found that these workers were unlikely to report abuse on the job due to threats from employers not to hire them in subsequent seasons and sponsor them for H-2B visa. Undocumented workers have been threatened with immigration enforcement.
“This new research exposes a reality that workers know all too well,” said Daniel Castellanos, former H-2B guest worker and a co-founder of the NGA. “Seafood processing workers are routinely subjected to severe forms of exploitation by companies producing cheap seafood for major retailers and food distributors like Walmart. And when they speak out or try to resist abuse, they are punished severely for it.”

https://www.theguardian.com/business...emporary-labor

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Méo

So whether it is U.S. or Canada, it's clear that there too many people that are not hungry enough...

Or maybe they are not enough to fill the gap?

I think August is right here and I will give you an example from Denmark.

Some years ago some companies was accused of using underpaid Polish workers. The leaders of these companies said that there weren't any Danes who wanted this job.

Some Journalist from a Danish news paper went undercover and started to investigate and research this.

It turned out that they had received hundreds of job application from Danes.

I know this is about US politics. However this "Danes/Swedes/Germans/and so on, don't want these jobs is a lie, and is a problem worldwide.

Markus

[vienna]

A big factor is not the willingness to do "dirty work", it is willingness to do the dirty work for substandard wages. US workers are loathe to do anything for minimum wage, much less for below minimum, which is where the immigrant workers fit in; if doing the "dirty work" were paid at a level of, say, 1-1/2 times minimum or higher, there might be an incentive for US workers to take those jobs...

All the talk of the immigrant workers has pretty much focused on the workers, themselves, and very, very little on the hiring entities, who are quite often violating Federal laws and regulations by hiring migrants. If there was a serious effort to hold the hiring parties responsible for adhering to long-existing laws, the incentive for immigrants to come to the US would be vastly reduced; people won't go where there are few or no jobs available to them. If you look at the way immigration laws regarding hiring are enforced, you would see a sort of 'blind eye' situation in play; there are laws prohibiting the employment of non-citizens or undocumented workers, but the enforcement against the employers is almost non-existent or very shoddy. As an example, there does exist a system for the verification of legal emplolyability status, but the use of the system, by law, is entirely voluntary: make it mandatory, make compliance a documented, and verified process, and, most importantly, make noncompliance punishable by hefty fines, sanctions, or, in extreme violation, jail time...

Why is the employment verification system voluntary and not mandatory? The employers who have profited from the use of non-eligible migrant labor such as farms, hotels, restaurants, and other places need workers for the "dirty work" have lobbied long and hard, at great expense, to keep their low-cost workforce and to avoid having to comply with existing laws...








<O>

[vienna]

Mueller adds veteran cyber prosecutor to special-counsel team --

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.f6bae950780a

Special counsel Robert S. Mueller III has added a veteran cyber prosecutor to his team, filling what has long been a gap in expertise and potentially signaling a recent focus on computer crimes.

Ryan K. Dickey was assigned to Mueller’s team in early November from the Justice Department’s computer crime and intellectual-property section, said a spokesman for the special counsel’s office. He joined 16 other lawyers who are highly respected by their peers but who have come under fire from Republicans wary of some of their political contributions to Democrats.

Dickey’s addition is particularly notable because he is the first publicly known member of the team specializing solely in cyber issues. The others’ expertise is mainly in a variety of white-collar crimes, including fraud, money laundering and public corruption, though Mueller also has appellate specialists and one of the government’s foremost experts in criminal law.

...

Dickey, who previously worked as an assistant U.S. attorney in the Eastern District of Virginia, has participated in a number of high-profile computer-crime prosecutions — including the ongoing case against the file-sharing site Megaupload and the investigation of the Romanian hacker known as “Guccifer.”

<O>

[em2nought]

Originally Posted by vienna

A big factor is not the willingness to do "dirty work", it is willingness to do the dirty work for substandard wages.
<O>

Nope, the real factor is a government that's willing to give away taxes I paid to people who know they can get "free" money so why work for it. The same as military contractors know that if they run over budget the government will give them my money to pay for it. As long as votes can be bought we are eventually doomed because someday I'm going to run out of money, if I don't leave and take it with me first.

[vienna]

Originally Posted by em2nought

Nope, the real factor is a government that's willing to give away taxes I paid to people who know they can get "free" money so why work for it. The same as military contractors know that if they run over budget the government will give them my money to pay for it. As long as votes can be bought we are eventually doomed because someday I'm going to run out of money, if I don't leave and take it with me first.

For the record, I said substandard wages is a big factor, not the only factor. It is still a fact people come here looking for jobs and the employers of those people and the Federal government have a cozy little "blind eye" arrangement facilitating the spread of the problem. As an example, there has been a recent increase in immigrants returning to Mexico because that's where the jobs are becoming plentiful, thanks to the creation of new manufacturing plants in Mexico. And who are creating those new plants and new jobs? Foreign (to Mexico) businesses who are looking for cheap labor and proximity to their prime market, the US. Foremost amongst the firms setting up shop in Mexico are US corporations looking to avoid paying US workers higher wages and benefits; why hire a US worker when you can get a Mexican or other worker who will do the same job for much less and with fewer to none of the benefits and perks US workers demand and with almost no repercussions for violating basic work conditions? The US firms may also be looking to avoid having to deal with US labor laws, safety requirements, environmental requirements, etc., but the very largest expenditure has long been wages and benefits and moving out of the US is the best way US firms see as a coping strategy...








<O>

[Méo]

I didn't think I had to specify this.

Originally Posted by Méo

I would like to see you elaborate on your ''myth'' to many U.S. farmers.

And I wonder why this has been created a long time ago...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-2A_visa

---

https://www.theatlantic.com/business...ations/529008/

So let me rephrase this:

Originally Posted by August

"Jobs that nobody wants"

''Jobs that are the least appealing.''

Agricultural jobs offer you:

- minimum wage

- A completely different lifestyle with a lot more than 8 hours/day, very few entertainment of any kind, limited access to a lot of services (internet, public places, medical center, etc.)

- Hard and repetitive physical work.

- Less chance of finding a life partner (for city citizen at least).

and the list could probably go on...

And this is nothing new, since the begining of the industrialization populations began quitting rural areas for cities in the hope of a better tomorrow. So it's no wonder that many agricultural employers have a hard time finding the sufficient workforce and turn overseas to fill the gap and probably put a lot of pression on governments to accept it.

Personally I've never known (or heard of) anyone whose dream was to work on a farm (unless they inherit from their parents).

Of course if I had really no choice I would do it, but it would take a huge crisis I guess, which is something ''nobody wants.''

[FullMetalADCAP]

It's the same old "I got mine so screw you" mentality that causes people to say that people should be happy to work minimum wage jobs, which IMHO amounts to theft by the rich who way underpay their employees compared to what they earn. If they had to work for minimum wage they wouldn't like it either. Certainly the rich can afford to pay people more than they do. And I'm not a leftist or even a democrat. I'm a registered conservative and don't believe in socialism. But the US political spectrum is so polarized with neither side wanting to compromise and meet in the middle. It's a never ending tug of war and it only results in a weak nation overall.

For instance, most people's wages haven't gone up in years. But this doesn't stop grocery stores from hiking up prices on products. And when you ask them why beef went up a whole dollar or two they respond that gas prices went up. But then when gas prices drop back down they don't reduce the price on the beef. They keep it at the inflated rate and just rake in tons of profit.

Cigna dental has increased their dental premium $10. Was paying $66 a month for me and my kids and now it's $76 after being a loyal customer for 3 years without a missed payment. And I'm just one person they raised the premium on. They have millions of customers and $10 is a HUGE profit gain for them when you consider the millions they hit with this increased rate. I can only imagine the CEO needed a new yacht or mega mansion. Why not raise it a nickel? I'm sure that would still be a gain for them. $10 is a HUGE jump for the average customer.

And $5 or more for a pack of cigarettes? Ridiculous robbery! Crazy fleecing of consumers. Pretty much a mega tax on the poor since it's shown that poorer people tend to smoke cigarettes. Get'em hooked on an addictive drug then tax the **** outta em and then blame them and say, "You don't have to smoke!" in a condescending way. See, they don't want to help you. They want to bankrupt and hurt you. It's pure and simple greed. It's got to stop! Real lives are affected and it's like everyone is just a heartless money-grubbing jerk these days giving each other the middle finger saying "I got mine screw you!" The world is losing it's humanity.

And it's true that many are born with parents who got all the right connections and their kids end up well off in life and those who grew up poor tend to end up poor for life. It isn't right. And I don't like the idea of a society in which failure comes with stiff economical penalties to coerce people into doing work. That level of coercion is like holding a gun to someone's head and saying "Work or starve!" How is that not absolute slavery? Why should anyone have to do anything just to get food? Especially in a society that has made hunting illegal unless you pay the tax. The powers that be have made it so you HAVE TO work for them just to survive. Otherwise you're breaking some law. Hell, you can't even be homeless anymore without breaking the law. Jailed for squatting or trespassing since some rich person owns all the land. And why don't you ever see homeless in the rich parts of town? Because the rich have more control over the cops and have the cops run them back into the poor part of town so the rich don't even have to see the homeless people in society. They live in a bubble world where they have slaves work for them and pay them peanuts while they wine and dine on the finest of everything like the gluttonous sacks of sin they are!

While it's easy to accuse many of being lazy sloths, there's way more gluttons in this society. Ain't nobody innocent. But some humanity and hospitality would do everyone a lot of good. Just such a nasty world these days. It's really sad.

The money system is just pure evil and makes people very evil and selfish. And those who don't want to play the game are accused of being lazy by those who play the game to "have it all."

Whatever happened to this level of compassion? How about we all stop playing the game and tear it up! The rich and powerful are only so because we choose to allow them to be. That can change. Tear it up!

[August]

Originally Posted by Méo

I didn't think I had to specify this.

So let me rephrase this:

''Jobs that are the least appealing.''

And I didn't think I would have to specify that the problems are exactly the same for both jobs.

As far as relative desirability goes all else being equal (pay) i'd take a fruit picker over a fish packer job any day. If you have ever been downwind of a fish packing facility or a cannery you'd know why.

[Skybird]

One of the many lessons of the recent presidential election campaign and its repugnant outcome is that the age of identity liberalism must be brought to an end. Hillary Clinton was at her best and most uplifting when she spoke about American interests in world affairs and how they relate to our understanding of democracy. But when it came to life at home, she tended on the campaign trail to lose that large vision and slip into the rhetoric of diversity, calling out explicitly to African-American, Latino, L.G.B.T. and women voters at every stop. This was a strategic mistake. If you are going to mention groups in America, you had better mention all of them. If you don’t, those left out will notice and feel excluded. Which, as the data show, was exactly what happened with the white working class and those with strong religious convictions. Fully two-thirds of white voters without college degrees voted for Donald Trump, as did over 80 percent of white evangelicals.
(...)
the fixation on diversity in our schools and in the press has produced a generation of liberals and progressives narcissistically unaware of conditions outside their self-defined groups, and indifferent to the task of reaching out to Americans in every walk of life. At a very young age our children are being encouraged to talk about their individual identities, even before they have them. By the time they reach college many assume that diversity discourse exhausts political discourse, and have shockingly little to say about such perennial questions as class, war, the economy and the common good. In large part this is because of high school history curriculums, which anachronistically project the identity politics of today back onto the past, creating a distorted picture of the major forces and individuals that shaped our country. (The achievements of women’s rights movements, for instance, were real and important, but you cannot understand them if you do not first understand the founding fathers’ achievement in establishing a system of government based on the guarantee of rights.)

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/20/o...iberalism.html

[Mr Quatro]

Originally Posted by FullMetalADCAP

It's the same old "I got mine so screw you" mentality that causes people to say that people should be happy to work minimum wage jobs, which IMHO amounts to theft by the rich who way underpay their employees compared to what they earn. If they had to work for minimum wage they wouldn't like it either.

You tell it like it is Full Metal ... you should share more often