GWX (Grey Wolves eXpansion Mod)

[Kpt. Lehmann]

To anyone else concerned about the Hurricane in GWX.

It is small, very fast, and even harder to hit. In testing most close range shots missed. THIS is what makes the Hurricane seem so tough.

It does not take many hits to shoot it down. The trick is simply achieving the hits in the first place.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion... but do keep in mind that they are just opinions.

Besides, shooting it out with aircraft wasn't a viable option for U-boats in real life.

For a time, the U-boat force was ordered to remain surfaced and fight off aircraft attacks.

The order was soon rescinded though due to the consequences.

[Wildhawke11]

Although it was the spitfire that was a better fighter plane in the battle of Britain it was its tight turning circle that made it the better fighter plane. The older hurricane although not being able to turn quick at speed was a much tougher plane and often limped home with loads of damage on it. This is a fact. How do i know ?. I was born in 1939 when the war broke out and later in life i spoke to a older friend who was in the RAF at the time.
Rock On GWX

PS
If i had seen your last post before i posted this KPT i would have held back LOL

[Kilhmar]

Jimbuna and Kpt. Lehmann, no offence was intended gentlemen. Though I had hoped some friendly soul would at least point me in the right direction, say “use SH3 Mini Tweeker to modify the aircraft's .zon files”. Those ten words would have saved me the better part of a day’s tinkering and testing, but I guess it was too much to ask from this community; you people seem pretty touchy about these things.

Running the risk of sparking off a major debate … Kpt. Lehmann when you say that “shooting it out with aircraft wasn't a viable option for U-boats in real life” it is both true and false depending on circumstances. It is true that fighting off aircraft was not a viable option in a strategic sense, but it certainly was viable in a tactical sense.

Earlier in this thread Albrecht von Hesse wrote, and I have little reason to doubt him, that: ”121 aircraft shot down by 97 individual U-boats for the loss of 31 U-boats either sunk during the attack or due to being located by other forces shortly afterwards and sunk. (http://uboat.net/history/aircraft_losses.htm)”. 31 U-boats lost for 121 aircraft is a horrible loss ratio simply because a U-boat is far more valuable than an aircraft both in resources spent on production, training and lives lost. However it also means that when the U-boats actually fought back instead of just trying to dive away the U-boats won roughly 3 out of 4 engagements, with a victory or draw going to the aircraft in only 1 out of 4.

Assuming that those statistics are correct it is quite clear that it was strategically completely unviable for the KM to have their U-boats fight off air attacks. However those statistics also show that when forced to fight the U-boats had a pretty good chance to win and survive a fight against aircraft. However towards the end of the war I doubt that this was still the case.


Now … not unlike most forums I’ve visited I see a lot of ignorant and simply wrong information being posted. That’s just the nature of the intardnet I suppose . Like .50 cal rounds being able to puncture the pressure hull of a U-boat for instance; complete hogwash. Even with the most modern MP NM140 round (developed and made by NAMMO Raufoss in Norway btw.) which uses a tungsten carbide hardcore can only penetrate 11 millimetres of steel. Still 11 mm of steel is more than most APC’s and American snipers have had great success against lightly armoured Iraqi vehicles using this ammunition. WWII .50 cal API ammo had nowhere near the penetration to damage a U-boat’s pressure hull. Even the mighty Panzer VI (Tiger) had no more than 25 mm thick top armour, and the USAAF’s .50 cals most certainly didn’t shoot trough that.

Even the post directly above shows a typical “Discovery Channel” lack of accuracy. The Spitfire did in no way turn tighter than the Hurricane. The Hurricane was on par with the F4F in terms of turning circle. What made the Spitfire the better fighter was its greater speed, which rivalled the 109E-4, but I won’t elaborate on that here. Aircraft is my first love, subs my second, and I have been embroiled in too many week-long discussions on really geeky stuff like sparkplug-fouling in the DB 605A running on 1.42 ata of manifold pressure in 1943 to argue Spits, Hurris and 109s on a U-boat forum. There are other, more appropriate forums for that.

Again, I don’t mean to offend anyone. Each to his own … it’s just a game.

[Jimbuna]

No offence taken.....we are all entitled to an opinion.....enjoy the game and have a nice day

[Kilhmar]

Thanks. You too Sir.

[Wildhawke11]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

No offence taken.....we are all entitled to an opinion.....enjoy the game and have a nice day

Short but very good answer Jim Boy.

[Wildhawke11]

*Each to his own … it’s just a game*

Even better remark from you Kilhmar

I sure wouldn't slug it out with an aircraft after seeing this video of LB-24/LB-30 attacking U-Boat with .50 Machine guns:

[Kilhmar]

Nice video Julius Caesar, thanks for sharing.

I wouldn't want to be in front of a .50 cal in any situation. However despite the impressive water plumes and incendiary flashes those .50's didn't do much more than possibly damage one of the flak turrets. The rest of the strikes would be ineffectual.

[joea]

Originally Posted by Kilhmar

Nice video Julius Caesar, thanks for sharing.

I wouldn't want to be in front of a .50 cal in any situation. However despite the impressive water plumes and incendiary flashes those .50's didn't do much more than possibly damage one of the flak turrets. The rest of the strikes would be ineffectual.

Ok, how thick was the U-boat's pressure hull anyway? :hmm:

You do know that machine guns could wreck all sorts of stuff like antennas, maybe even the KDB hydrophone heads...and for tanks anti-tank rifles as well as MGs were useful for damaging vision slits (I saw a cool German training video that showed Panther crew carried extra vision blocks in case one was damaged.) and exhaust ports etc.

Hull of VIIC was around 18.5 mm (0.73 in).

[donw]

Originally Posted by joea

I saw a cool German training video that showed Panther crew carried extra vision blocks in case one was damaged.) and exhaust ports etc.

:hmm: They any relation to Panzer crews? J/K Mate I ran around in Army M-113 APC's for a while, and yea, we also had extra vision blocks on board.

[joea]

Originally Posted by donw

:hmm: They any relation to Panzer crews? J/K Mate I ran around in Army M-113 APC's for a while, and yea, we also had extra vision blocks on board.

:rotfl:No they were really Panzer crews in Panther (Pz V) tanks in a film showing how to fight Soviet infantry.

Here it is:

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Julius Caesar

I sure wouldn't slug it out with an aircraft after seeing this video of LB-24/LB-30 attacking U-Boat with .50 Machine guns:

Probably the most fitting way to add clarity and understanding to the never ending confusion some people have for the destructive effect cannon fire can have on a U-boat

[Kilhmar]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Probably the most fitting way to add clarity and understanding to the never ending confusion some people have for the destructive effect cannon fire can have on a U-boat

I wonder why you would say that? The video showed no cannon fire (.50 cals are not cannon), nor did it show any damage done. A lot of water splashes and a few incendiary flashes yes, but no evident damage done to the U-boat.

Also you should always take these video clips with a grain of salt. I don't know if it was an outtake from Discovery or a WWII propaganda film, but it shows us three distinctly different U-boats. In the first U-boat scene the U-boat is clearly diving, its turm just about to be submerged. The second (very brief) U-boat scene shows a smaller U-boat, probably a VII with a small turm maneuvering on the surface. The third and final U-boat scene shows a mid-late war IX with a large turm configuration being strafed. The fate of these U-boats remain unknown since we don't actually get to see any of them being sunk.

Always remember that wartime footage was filmed for a purpose, and that purpose seldom had anything to do with the truth.