US Politics Thread 2016-2020

[August]

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

Even more confused now.
First of all, I thought the NY times is fake news?

And Trump was blubbering about -his- phones on twitter, the headline says something about associates/aides?

Again, is there actual evidence to the claim trump made?

The guy owns the building. I would assume that includes the phones in his offices.

His twitter messages heavily imply it's his personal phones, at least that's how it sounds to me.

Anyways.
What's the evidence for his claims?
That's what I was interested in.

[August]

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

His twitter messages heavily imply it's his personal phones, at least that's how it sounds to me.

That is not an opinion I've heard shared by anyone else.

Anyways.
What's the evidence for his claims?
That's what I was interested in.

At this point about the same amount of evidence that the Russians hacked our election. For months the Democrats have been investigating the Trump campaign. It was on the front page of the NYT which is one of their biggest propaganda outlets. Is it really that much of a stretch to believe that such an investigation would make use of wire taps?

[ikalugin]

Apparently Sberbank-Russia confirmed via the press statement to TASS that Tony Podesta was working on a contract with it's subsidiery Sberbank-CIB to lobbey against sanctions.

statement:
http://tass.ru/ekonomika/4082297

Tony Podesta is affiliated through his brother with the HC campaighn.

This means that HC campaighn had an indirect connection with the Russian state owned company due to one affiiated person lobbying on their behalf. I can be wrong but to me it appears that Trump's campaighn is accused of simmilat affiliations.

Originally Posted by August

That is not an opinion I've heard shared by anyone else.

Now you have then...

Originally Posted by August

At this point about the same amount of evidence that the Russians hacked our election. For months the Democrats have been investigating the Trump campaign. It was on the front page of the NYT which is one of their biggest propaganda outlets. Is it really that much of a stretch to believe that such an investigation would make use of wire taps?

Err, ok.
Whatever Russia blabla, I asked for evidence for trumps claims, not what anyone "believes".

So, evil durmocrurts not providing a source is "lies and propaganda", yet an evidence-less story from the Republican side immediately finds complete support, isn't questioned, isn't doubted.
I could swear someone just said something about double standards. Mmhh...

[vienna]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

That is just the typical double standard the "Right" uses.

for close to one week, Far Right GOP and the Alt_Right Media have been trying to claim that there was specific wiretapping by Obama against Trump. Yet after all that time, all they can show are innuendos, weak circumstantial evidence and claims made by anonymous sources. There is still not one piece of hard evidence showing any "wiretapping". Yet that has not stopped the Far Right from demanding a special prosecutor and further investigation.

...

Fixed it for you, no thanks necessary...

Incidentally, I am all for investigating both claims. Remember, I am an Independent and I am neither Right nor Left. It just seems the Far Right and Trump are glomming onto the Obama wiretap allegations as a means of avoiding any investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 Election process, sort of "We'll drop ours if you drop yours". I say investigate both of them and see if there is any substance to either allegation(s). If there is nothing to hide, there is no need to fear an effort to get to the truth. Note that none of the Russian allegations say Trump was directly involved with Russian efforts, only that there are disturbing indications of possible efforts by some of Trump's associates having potentially illegal associations during the campaign and afterwards. This is not Watergate where you have a tape of the President directly coordinating criminal activity. If the investigation does turn up illegal behavior, I doubt it will get to the very doorstep of Trump. However, if it is found those around him are guilty of criminal acts, it would behoove Trump, whose has famously said he was going to "drain the swamp" and who has otherwise stated he wants to eliminate governmental corruption and graft, to actually walk the walk, grow some cojones and eliminate from his administration those who are corrupt or criminal; otherwise, all he is is just another lying, dishonest politician...

Now, it is true if the Russian allegations are substantiated, the legitimacy and integrity of his ascension to and assumption of the Presidency may be somewhat 'illegitimized', but he should then look at that possible result as an opportunity to live up to his 'hype' and act like a responsible, law enforcing leader and proving to the American people, other than his small core constituency, that he really means what he said...

However given his past performances, I wouldn't hold my breath...



<O>

[Bilge_Rat]

politico accuses ny times of not being a credible mainstream American news outlet

well no, not directly, I was just trying to write news headline like all the anti-Trump journalists out there.

I read this quote in Politico and just about spit out my coffee:

But no credible mainstream American outlets have reported that the Obama administration conducted surveillance on Trump Tower or the Trump campaign, whether in the form of a court-ordered wiretap or something else.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/0...tapping-236001

Hello! Anyone remember this?

NY Times:

Wiretapped Data Used in Inquiry of Trump Aides

WASHINGTON — American law enforcement and intelligence agencies are examining intercepted communications and financial transactions as part of a broad investigation into possible links between Russian officials and associates of President-elect Donald J. Trump, including his former campaign chairman Paul Manafort, current and former senior American officials said.

(...)


The counterintelligence investigation centers at least in part on the business dealings that some of the president-elect’s past and present advisers have had with Russia. Mr. Manafort has done business in Ukraine and Russia. Some of his contacts there were under surveillance by the National Security Agency for suspected links to Russia’s Federal Security Service, one of the officials said.

The F.B.I. is leading the investigations, aided by the National Security Agency, the C.I.A. and the Treasury Department’s financial crimes unit. The investigators have accelerated their efforts in recent weeks but have found no conclusive evidence of wrongdoing, the officials said. One official said intelligence reports based on some of the wiretapped communications had been provided to the White House.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/05/u...T.nav=top-news

[vienna]

Looks like Trump is trying to tap dance (pretty hard when you you've got one foot in your mouth up to your kneecap) his way out of the whole wiretapping mess he started.



Along with his dance partner, Sean Spicer, they are now trying to mince quotation marks, of all things, in an effort to mitigate what has become one whale of an act of bad judgement:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-wire-tapping/

SNL writers must be feeling a sense of job insecurity because Trump & Associates are self-writing skit material themselves. The real problem for Trump, and by extension, the GOP, is how this second-rate vaudeville act will play for the voters come election day in 2018...

From the Politico article cited:

“I think there is no question that the Obama administration, that there were actions about surveillance and other activities that occurred in the 2016 election. That is a widely-reported activity that occurred back then,” Spicer said. “The president used the word wiretap in quotes to mean broadly surveillance and other activities during that.”


He added: “It is interesting how many news outlets reported that this activity was taking place during the 2016 election cycle, and now we're wondering where the proof is. It is many of the same outlets in this room that talked about the activities that were going on back then.”


It is unclear what reports Spicer was referring to. News outlets have reported that intelligence officials have been investigating whether there were inappropriate ties between the Trump campaign and the Russian government. As part of the probe into the country’s suspected attempts to meddle in the election and regular surveillance on Russia’s ambassador, they have reportedly intercepted communications between some campaign aides and Russian officials.



But no credible mainstream American outlets have reported that the Obama administration conducted surveillance on Trump Tower or the Trump campaign, whether in the form of a court-ordered wiretap or something else.

[Italics mine]

The mainstream press apparently did report, extensively, about the surveillance of various outside elements as it related to the issue of possible Russian effort to influence the 2016 Presidential election. The mainstream media is asking not for proof of what they have already reported, but, specifically, for proof of criminal accusations Trump, himself, personally, has made against a previous sitting President. Trying to mince and parse in an effort to walk back (or tap dance back) a brilliantly stupid and insane bit of really bad misjudgement is, well, "sad", "weak". (And, yes, in this case it is a direct quote, not one of those 'air-quotes'.)

As far as the NY Times article cited, nowhere in the article does it mention any direct surveillance of Trump himself; the surveillance was of outside elements such as the Russian ambassador. If the members of Trumps team were stupid enough to communicate openly with someone they should have had a reasonable expectation of being watched by the US government, then what would they expect? Again, remember, none of the allegations thus far have in any way personally linked Trump himself to any interactions with agents of foreign states or with any illegal activity; and, again, if Trump is really the 'champion' of law and order and anti-corruption with nothing to fear, he will act decisively to eliminate any corrupt and/or illegal elements within his administration. After all, he was the one who was going to "drain the swamp". I guess it must be extremely hard to ascend to the moral high ground when the soles of one's feet are liberally coated with so much swamp-bottom slime...



<O>

[Rockstar]

[QUOTE=vienna;2472658]

From the Politico article cited:

[Italics mine]

The mainstream press apparently did report, extensively, about the surveillance of various outside elements as it related to the issue of possible Russian effort to influence the 2016 Presidential election. The mainstream media is asking not for proof of what they have already reported, but, specifically, for proof of criminal accusations Trump, himself, personally, has made against a previous sitting President. Trying to mince and parse in an effort to walk back (or tap dance back) a brilliantly stupid and insane bit of really bad misjudgement is, well, "sad", "weak". (And, yes, in this case it is a direct quote, not one of those 'air-quotes'.)

From someone who doesnt really pay attention to this kind of political party drama much I have to ask what is your point? One hand you seem to say the press didnt really ask for any proof concerning what they wrote 'extensively' about 'possible' foreign election influence. Then go on and seem to say the press and the world is now owed proof concerning what someone else wrote or said?

As far as the NY Times article cited, nowhere in the article does it mention any direct surveillance of Trump himself; the surveillance was of outside elements such as the Russian ambassador. If the members of Trumps team were stupid enough to communicate openly with someone they should have had a reasonable expectation of being watched by the US government, then what would they expect? Again, remember, none of the allegations thus far have in any way personally linked Trump himself to any interactions with agents of foreign states or with any illegal activity; and, again, if Trump is really the 'champion' of law and order and anti-corruption with nothing to fear, he will act decisively to eliminate any corrupt and/or illegal elements within his administration. After all, he was the one who was going to "drain the swamp". I guess it must be extremely hard to ascend to the moral high ground when the soles of one's feet are liberally coated with so much swamp-bottom slime...



<O>

Being observed by itelligence services openly communicating with others is not illegal. So I have to ask where is the proof they did or said anything illegal? I would expect the president to live up to his word. But where is the proof that his staff was engaged in illegal activity that would lead you, me or anyone to say he must now drain the swamp because of what his staff did?

What exactley is the point of your entire post? Because so far their is no proof anything only the usual political b.s. along party lines. Perpetuated by the bored.

[ikalugin]

Warning, the links below lead to the areas of internet with dangerous levels of paranoia.

Some stuff on the Washington DC construction:
https://cryptome.org/eyeball/usndc/usndc-eyeball.htm
It appears that there is either a new underground transportation system under construction between the two sites (which are next to the Pentagon and the Naval Observatory) or a very large underground fascility.

And on nuclear weapons transportation
https://cryptome.org/eyeball/nnsa-ost/nnsa-ost.htm

Being observed by itelligence services openly communicating with others is not illegal.

Guilt by assosiation.

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

Warning, the links below lead to the areas of internet with dangerous levels of paranoia.

Some stuff on the Washington DC construction:
https://cryptome.org/eyeball/usndc/usndc-eyeball.htm
It appears that there is either a new underground transportation system under construction between the two sites (which are next to the Pentagon and the Naval Observatory) or a very large underground fascility.

And on nuclear weapons transportation
https://cryptome.org/eyeball/nnsa-ost/nnsa-ost.htm

Guilt by assosiation.

Its so very disappointing when the public reads their favorite political rag and an article is presented in such a way to lead you to believe when someone has openly communicated and associated themselves with another that its deemed a high crime, an illegal act of espionage, deserving of full blown investigation and punishment. And they fall for it everytime.

Reminds me of a bunch of old women gossiping about their neighbors.

When something illegal has happened and the press actually did their job and found real tangiable proof of an illegal act is part of the discussion/arguement, lets talk.

Now that secret underground project in D.C. thats for real, I think you're on to something here. But its not the Navy or even the U.S. government. The real secret is that its a mind control project funded by the Vatican at the request of Putin and built by either the Masons or Illuminati.

[ikalugin]

Now that secret underground project in D.C. thats for real, I think you're on to something here. But its not the Navy or even the U.S. government. The real secret is that its a mind control project funded by the Vatican at the request of Putin and built by either the Masons or Illuminati.

I mean if you disregard the paranoid ramblings those conspiracy theorists make and look at the evidence itself you can make a conclusion that there is significant underground construction happening.

Considering that the contractor in question loves neo-austrian tonneling method it is quite telling that they have a concrete factory with it's visible water tanks on site. Shame I don't have my own human asset network as that way I would be able to estimate the volume of construction from cement going in and earth going out.

[August]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

I mean if you disregard the paranoid ramblings those conspiracy theorists make and look at the evidence itself you can make a conclusion that there is significant underground construction happening.

Considering that the contractor in question loves neo-austrian tonneling method it is quite telling that they have a concrete factory with it's visible water tanks on site. Shame I don't have my own human asset network as that way I would be able to estimate the volume of construction from cement going in and earth going out.

So in other words you have no idea if they aren't just pouring a new slab for the building they just built on the site.

[ikalugin]

Originally Posted by August

So in other words you have no idea if they aren't just pouring a new slab for the building they just built on the site.

Considering the site productivity (water reserves) the length (years) of production and site size that must be two very deep slabs they have been pouring under those beige hangars.

However you are right, the findings are inconclusive, I would come back to this topic if I find extra data, say the financial stuff. Though I can't help myself but think that there is indeed extensive underground construction there because how precisely those two sites follow TIS patern down to what they write on the sighns. The vibe I get is that after the public coverage of Russian construction in the late 90s and after 9/11 happened the USG went out and said that they want the shiny toys Russians are having.

p.s. the neo-astrian method that US contractor (Clark Construction Group) loves sprays concrete on the tonnel walls to reinforce them. Hence having fresh concrete is convenient, but surprisingly not as nessesary as with pressurise concrete pour.

[Rockstar]

Nobody knows for sure but the word on the street is the work carried out was a utility assessment and upgrade.

Considering the island is man made built atop a swamp and waste maybe they really had to do some upgrades to a pre-existing structure.

It could be something new too but I find it hard to believe they are just getting around to connecting Reagan airport, W.H.. and the Pentagon.

Underground FEMA death camp maybe?