Guides and Training

[OrangeYoshi]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Yeah, when I get the facts all wrong I can always fall back on the entertainment value!

Actually, with the requirements I put on my videos, real time with no time compression, one cut production so you can learn the pacing of the actual attack, complete with dead space and boredom sometimes, "live" production values with no editing afterwards, I'm always worried that they will be too boring and that people will stop watching before they can learn what I'm trying to teach.

I'm glad to learn that isn't always the case.

It isn't really boring at all. The background music is a little loud at times so that people have to struggle a bit to hear, but it isn't bothersome. You fill the time well talking about your failures, or giving little jeopardy quizzes, etc.

[I'm goin' down]

What is missing?

The fundamental concept of aspect ratio and AoB are laid out in Hitman's tutorial (pdf format) by the one and only Hitman. I recommend it be included for those like me who had no inkling of the issue and concepts to overcome in successfully executing a manual targeting attack.

[Rockin Robbins]

I don't use that because it's not realistic. Information on target lengths and heights was not available during World War II. Even if it were, cut-down masts, paint jobs to make it difficult to see mastheads, disguising of ships to look like other ships of different lengths and aspect ratios all took place. That will never be part of any tutorial I ever do. I will never advise anybody to use that method, as it is entirely bogus for use in US fleet boats. It was very rarely used on U-Boats as a last resort.

[I'm goin' down]

the point is that it teaches aspect ratio and AoB. It is a tool to help understand those features for those who are not familiar with them.

[Rockin Robbins]

Aspect ratio is not a legitimate targeting tool, especially for fleet boats. Not once in the entire war can I find a single instance of using aspect ratio or timing the length of the target by the wire. Both of these techniques enjoy a peculiar popularity here at Subsim and both are illegitimate techniques when applied to World War II submarines. As I said earlier, very rarely, U-Boats used aspect ratio as a last resort tool.

After-war analysis of targets sunk and not sunk by American submarines revealed that most of the time targets were misidentified. That means that if they had Capn Scurvy's perfect list of hull lengths, heights of all features and Hitman's aspect ratios, they still couldn't have hit the broad side of a barn.

The fact is that we had very little information of the true dimensions of any non-warship in the Japanese fleet. We routinely misguesstimated lengths by a factor of 2, misidentified tonnage by as much as a factor of 3, failed to identify the identity of most targets and in general made a mockery of any ONI manual that we had. Given all that, using methods that increase periscope magnification, provide perfect dimensions of every target on the ocean, eliminate all errors in the database, are illegitimate targeting tools if you care anything about realism.

These tools stand directly between you and understanding the thoughts and feelings of World War II submariners. Now if you wish to play an arcade game, have at it. That's not why I play Silent Hunter.

I firmly believe that it wasn't the captain's fault when many torpedoes failed to explode against the hull of his target. I don't believe they were in complete control of success or failure every time they mashed the fire button. I think our insistence that we should be makes a mockery of the simulation.

Many submariners died for reasons they were not responsible for. Many had spectacular successes for the same reason. War ain't fair. People die when they do everything right. Only failure can be guaranteed. Success is always a crapshoot. The resulting frustration is a central and necessary part of anything with any pretention of being a simulation.

That is why MaxOptics, SCAF, aspect ratio AoB determination or LOA timing past the wire speed determination will never be endorsed or taught by me. The most important ingredient in simulation is the unknown gotcha.

[Hitman]

Aspect ratio is not a legitimate targeting tool, especially for fleet boats. Not once in the entire war can I find a single instance of using aspect ratio or timing the length of the target by the wire. Both of these techniques enjoy a peculiar popularity here at Subsim and both are illegitimate techniques when applied to World War II submarines. As I said earlier, very rarely, U-Boats used aspect ratio as a last resort tool.

After-war analysis of targets sunk and not sunk by American submarines revealed that most of the time targets were misidentified. That means that if they had Capn Scurvy's perfect list of hull lengths, heights of all features and Hitman's aspect ratios, they still couldn't have hit the broad side of a barn.

RR is mostly right. The aspect ratio and fixed wire methods are not, by any means, historically correct for the us submarines, and in the german uboats were they come from they also weren't that much used.

In the us submarines, plotting was the main way of getting the necessary values for the firing solution. Plot was fed from periscope observations (stadimeter for distance, based on mast/funnel heigth estimates and AOB by plain eye observation) and then checked against the TDC position keeper. When radar appeared, this task was greatly improved in accurancy, because the distance could be accurately determined, but overall the method was still the same, only more precise. Developed in the interwar period, when submarines were thought vulnerable if close to the target, the method ensured that even long range shots could have accurancy, and that firing even without seeing the target was possible (Thanks to the position keeper).

The german uboats in turn resorted to other systems, and the plot was mostly unused. The only time when something similar was used was when overhauling in the surface a target, be it a convoy or a single ship. In those cases, the captain would rely to the navigator a crude estimation of distance and issue the proper orders to keep the uboat in paralell course beyond the horizon. The comparison of own uboat course changes and bearing lines gave the navigator an approximate idea of the enemy course and speed. And when in perfect paralell position, the commander would make some speed variations until the bearing stayed constant, showing true enemy speed. In other circunstances, mainly night and submerged attacks, the commander or IWO estimated all, distance, AOB and speed by naked eye, and if available, used the values gathered previously during the overhaul maneuver.

The aspect ratio system is derivated from the horizontal stadimeter present in early war uboats and interwar periscope makers, which was not unknown to the americans. It was a useful gadget in the peacetime maneuvers, where dimensions of target ships were well known, and it helped the commanders develop the seaman eye. But in wartime, for all circunstances explained by RR, it was mostly useless.

Not so much the fixed wire, which was still used, but again not as widely as plain eye estimate.

The reason I adapted them to a quick tutorial for us submarines was to get people started on manual targetting and familiarize them with some concepts. Since the AR and FW methods were useful in situations where target dimensions are know and there is no pressure on the shooter, they fitted well the concept of SH3/4 gaming. We don't risk our necks, and the limited number of ships in the game allows us to use it. And, in the same run, the player starts understanding concepts such as the non-linear change of AOB, and the sense of relative motion of the target. In my experience, after some time using the system, the user discovers that he has developed enough experience to tell the AOB by naked eye estimation, even in a 2D environment as a game screen. And the speed also starts being judged with some accurancy, at least in some 3-4 knots interval.

I don't however concur so much with the idea that it is impossibel to guesstimate more or less correctly a ship's length (Mast heigth is more difficult), because with some practice it isn't so difficult. There are certain naval construction rules that help a bit, because shipbuilders always tend to keep some proportions, and because a few meters up or down in length don't make a lot of difference for us.

[Rockin Robbins]

Thanks Hitman! Yup, you've hit on the single most important factor in why Americans had MUCH worse hits per torpedo and sinkings per torpedo ratios: excessive dependence on fussy accuracy, while shooting too far from the target. They didn't know that precision is wasted when your measurements are not accurate enough to justify the precision.

Germans, with full realization that it was war and they were risking their sorry necks anyway, knowing that they could be killed even if they took every precaution, and not wanting to waste their lives, properly analyzed the relative interaction between unavoidable errors and precision. They pressed the attack darned close because they KNEW their solutions contained errors and that the solution to the errors was closing the distance. Result: more booms with lower technology and more "questionable" precision. Questionable!!!? You heard the boom didn't you?

Until Admiral Lockwood started replacing sub commanders wholesale because they were just plain unwilling to put their boat at any risk whatever (forget about the fact that leaving the dock did that!), our performance was frankly terrible. The fact that Mush Morton and Dick O'Kane garnered popular reputations as crazy madmen who would just get their crews killed (well, actually they did, but not for that reason, the evidence seems to show), is very revealing of the general attitude of the non-commanders in the fleet.

In fact, one book I have, which is self-published and I fear not available to anyone, is Torpedoman, by Ron Smith. This book parades as fiction but it is clear that it is based on Ron Smith's personal experiences as a torpedoman. Its whole focus is the wide gulf and mistrust between the officers and men on a US submarine. From the liner notes:

The story moves into the real area of combat unique to submarines with its physical and emotional demands that challenge human endurance—where the desire to perform one's duty is in constant conflict with the desire to live. A near mutiny occurs as the crew struggles with the decision of sacrificing themselves by blindly following orders or disobeying and surviving.

The book is rather crudely written, but this serves to give the book authenticity: its written by a torpedoman, not a college educated pretty boy from officer country. Hell, they couldn't tie their shoes without the chief of the boat holding the knot as they did so.

There was little trust and no respect between officers and men of many US submarines. It apparently was worse in the Royal Navy. The destructive dichotomy led to a restructuring of relationships after the war was over and the harmfulness of this lack of trust was revealed. The boats that succeeded in eroding that wall between officers and men, Barb and others, were much more successful than those that ran stictly "by the book." Today, this aberrant relationship is mostly written out of history. And there is a higher sheen of professionalism top to bottom in our modern sub navy. Yes, we've lost some character but we've gained a lot of effectiveness.

Heck, I've wandered into Davey territory and left Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks territory. I'll shut up now.

But on tactics: do the best you can on working out a solution on a historically justified basis, but then use the hammer. Getting close makes the errors insignificant and ensures a very high hit percentage anyway. It worked for the Germans and it will work for you.

[I'm goin' down]

You have quoted a book of fiction and assumed the quoted portion is not fiction.

In TMO 1.7 to 1.8 beta, the dds can find you if you are close. I have been in position for 15 minutes before the convoy arrives and in silent running mode. Still, the dds have been dancing on my soon to be grave, pounding the sea for 5.

How do you position your boat to keep a low profice on radar, so the dds won't hammer you? Someone send me a PM noting that is what they do, but they filed to respond to my follow-up question on how to do it.

[Rockin Robbins]

A cursory reading of the book and its crude fictionalization quickly reveals the reality of the experiences related. This guy is not skilled enough to make anything up, and that actually serves to accentuate the book's reality. The word fiction is not synonymous with the word untrue. Some truths are best related within fiction. That is why Edward Beach chose fiction for his Run Silent Run Deep trilogy. If you want to know how to run a WWII sub, there is no better source material.

In TMO, if the escorts are around you can safely assume they will be on top of you. Therefore, you have to outsmart them. I usually plan on an action which will take several hours. I begin my attacks at sunset to take advantage of the cover of darkness during the entire action.

The first attack is a compromise. I'm targeting the largest merchant, because I'm going to be shooting from a distance. I'd love to sink him but my primary goal is to concentrate the escort screen on my side of the convoy. I'll close to between 2000 and 2500 yards and shoot two torpedoes at the same target from outside the escort screen. Don't do anything fancy or try to hit multiple targets. Immediately after the torpedoes leave the tubes, turn tail and run. The escorts will dutifully charge your last known position, but you'll be out of there, on the surface at 3000 yards or so from the nearest escort.

Do an end around to the other side of the convoy. You have about 30 minutes. Now you have a completely unguarded side of the convoy. Press your attack close, hammer 'em hard and again turn tail to run before the escorts can get to you.

Rinse and repeat as necessary.

If the escorts do succeed in pinning you down, look for the sneaky guy that stops to listen to tell the others where to drop their greeting cards. Once he vanishes from sonar you can be sure he's stopped. It's time to set a torpedo or two for point and shoot. A Mark 18 is great for this. Speed zero, AoB zero or 180. Come to periscope depth, point the boat to put him on the zero bearing, press the send range/bearing button and shoot one quarter of the way back from the bow. That way if he hits the jets you'll still get him.

I find that a sinking buddy cools their aggressiveness enough for you to get away.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

In TMO 1.7 to 1.8 beta, the dds can find you if you are close.

I'm guessing by close, you mean within 6,000 yards and yourself being above the thermal layer. If that's the case, you might see a small change in behavior soon.

[I'm goin' down]

If the dds can locate you at that range, how can you ever approach a convoy? They have already located you are are dialing in.

[Rockin Robbins]

How do you approach within 6000 yards? See my post above. Not only is it possible, but a routine occurrence.

[Ducimus]

I had a fun time this morning.

Heavy fog + SJ radar = Daylight surface attack.

You can use sonar for ranging if you want to, but radar is all you really need. Get a rough range guesstimate with the A scope, you get your bearing by manning the thing yourself, and coast your boat right in to 500 yards. I still couldn't see them at that range, but at that range so long as you got the bearing right, the rest is unneeded. Set for fast speed on the fish, with 2 to 3 degree offset, and fire a fan shot. It's almost like shooting fish in a barrel.

Nobody can see you, you can get in super close, can't get a decent solution but one isn't needed anyway, and you make your exist on the surface. Tin cans can't find you at all. Hell, i even took to going parralell with the convoy and firing my deck gun in a broad side manner by shooting at the nearest target via radar bearing and ranging. Deflection is a non issue, all you need is bearing, and use the shell flash as a guide to hit or miss. The escorts may come to investigate, but since its super foggy they' go slow, which gives you plenty of time to fire some rounds and make a get away if they get close. I let one tin can get within 1000 yards before i turned tail. Was plugging away at a maru i pulled alongside from a 400 yard range.

In one daylight surface attack, i made 3 consecutive attacks before i withdrew from the convoy. It was, quite literally, "a running gun and torpedo battle." Radar and Heavy fog, a friendly combination !

[Rockin Robbins]

Arrrrrrrr! Thanks for visiting Ducimus. And radar attacks in fog were a submariner's dream in the real war too. When you get soup, don't reset the weather! Bag the best cruise you've ever had instead! There is no fun like plugging targets you've never seen. Unless it turns out to be the USS Essex....

[Armistead]

I love OKane in bad weather using sonar lines. I sunk entire convoys with the deckgun pouring down rain with fog. Just ask for sonar updates and fire away. Course always fun sinking the escorts in bad weather.