Something I really didn't expect to see

Elektroniikka-Asentaja · 02-08-11, 11:36 AM

I was interested about the Paradox's naval RTS game and ended up talking about it in another forums and someone posted me a link:

I was amazed because of two reasons

1. I never thought that Sweden would have invested in such submarine technology

2. Submarine that can stay submerged for a month, is able to sink an aircraft carrier with one or two hits and is able to play cat and mouse in San Diego military harbor without getting caught

Pretty awesome

Herr-Berbunch · 02-08-11, 12:03 PM

Modern nuclear subs can remain underwater indefinately, they create their own water and oxygen, the only thing they need to come up for is food (and mail - or there'd be a mutiny!)

And that footage is from 2006?

There! Who needs TLAM?

Elektroniikka-Asentaja · 02-08-11, 12:28 PM

Well it isn't very new clip at least..

Only thing that boat needs is top speed of 80 knots and it is equal to my Tambor class boats in SHIV

Being surface ship skipper is getting more and more dangerous as it seems to be easier to develop new submarine than something that detects it

Herr-Berbunch · 02-08-11, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elektroniikka-Asentaja

Well it isn't very new clip at least..

Only thing that boat needs is top speed of 80 knots and it is equal to my Tambor class boats in SHIV

Being surface ship skipper is getting more and more dangerous as it seems to be easier to develop new submarine than something that detects it

But us Brits just need to learn how to use them, and a tidal map!

TLAM Strike · 02-08-11, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elektroniikka-Asentaja

I was amazed because of two reasons

1. I never thought that Sweden would have invested in such submarine technology

Besides small coastal patrol craft subs are what Sweden invests in. Subs are their main naval weapon.

Quote:

2. Submarine that can stay submerged for a month, is able to sink an aircraft carrier with one or two hits and is able to play cat and mouse in San Diego military harbor without getting caught

Not that surprising. As HB said nucs can stay dived for months too, and don't have the same speed restrictions that an AIP boat does and AIP boats need to run loud turbines or modified diesels to charge the batts.

Also any decent sub can sink a carrier with a torpedo spread. I know a guy who was in the USN and was chopped for wargames to a South American (forgot what country) Type 209 submarine that waited on the bottom for a US carrier to drive within torpedo range and scored a "kill". The Type 209 is no AIP boat.

Penguin · 02-09-11, 08:01 AM

I still think it was quite impressive performance, given the great technological advance in detection technology since WW2, they still do better than one would expect.

And I missed the chance to visit a Gotland-class sub by one day...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elektroniikka-Asentaja

1. I never thought that Sweden would have invested in such submarine technology

It's all part of the secret plan to take Åland back...

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

As HB said nucs can stay dived for months too, and don't have the same speed restrictions that an AIP boat does and AIP boats need to run loud turbines or modified diesels to charge the batts.

Is there really such a big difference in the aspect of noise ?

All I know is how they try to minimize sounds on the 212-class, and they do a pretty good job IMO, but I have no comparision to a nuc sub.

Herr-Berbunch · 02-09-11, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herr-Berbunch

There! Who needs TLAM?

But he still brings something to the party.

TLAM Strike · 02-09-11, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penguin

Is there really such a big difference in the aspect of noise ?

All I know is how they try to minimize sounds on the 212-class, and they do a pretty good job IMO, but I have no comparision to a nuc sub.

The 212 is a sort of Odd Ball submarine. She uses fuel cells which are as quiet as batteries in use but still need to be recharged with the diesels. The fuel cells are for operations at low speeds while the batteries are for high speed combat manuring. Think of the 212 as a super battery boat. The Soviets experimented with this on a Whiskey boat and found its performance good but not worth the expense at the time.

The Gotland uses a modified diesel call a Sterling Cycle Engine. Basicly oxygenated fuel is pumped in to run it.

The Scorpene class uses a turbine fueled by ethanol and O2.

Penguin · 02-09-11, 09:21 AM

Ok, got it. Thanks for your elaboration.

I would love to check out the 212 one day, afaik there has been no possibilities yet for civilians to visit it.

raymond6751 · 02-09-11, 09:33 AM

I've read that nuke boats are noisy when compared to the diesel-electrics. They (nukes) are a threat based on their weapons carried. The DE boats are a threat by silence.

Since most of the subs built are not nuke powered, they represent the actual state of the art.

Just as most wars are settled by the conventional forces rather than the fancy gadgets, the naval wars will be settled by the simple, time-tested silent service.

TLAM Strike · 02-09-11, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raymond6751

I've read that nuke boats are noisy when compared to the diesel-electrics. They (nukes) are a threat based on their weapons carried. The DE boats are a threat by silence.

Since most of the subs built are not nuke powered, they represent the actual state of the art.

Just as most wars are settled by the conventional forces rather than the fancy gadgets, the naval wars will be settled by the simple, time-tested silent service.

partially true. It really depends on who you ask, there are two camps on the subj each with their own supporters. I try to remain impartial.

Nucs at cruise speeds tend to be noisy, not because the are nuclear powered alone but because they have pumps to cool the reactor and turbines to turn the screw. Now there have been experiments to overcome this. There have been US Subs with a turbo-electric drive instead of a turbine (Glenard P. Lipscomb and Tullibee), both were very quiet but the TE drive was complex, and resulted in slower speeds than turbine equipped subs. The Narwhal had a natural circulation reactor with sea water intakes that gets rid of the coolant pumps. Narwhal was quite possibly the quietest SSN ever built. Her natural circulation reactor (but not the sea water intakes) were repeated on the Ohio SSBNs and maybe other submarines. Natural circulation reactors have also been used on Russian Nuc boats and on the French Rubis class attack boats. At low speeds a Natural Circulation boat will run almost as quiet as a SSK on batteries but still be capable of high SSN Speeds on demand. Personally I think Natural Circulation is the best option for submarine population, especially for submarines tasked with ASW.

As for weapon outfits SSN and SSK have much the same weapons capabilities (diesels tend to have more tubes in fact), although some SSNs have VLS tubes. Nuc boats also have space for larger sensors meaning they are better suited for ASW.

Buck_O · 03-11-11, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

partially true. It really depends on who you ask, there are two camps on the subj each with their own supporters. I try to remain impartial.

Nucs at cruise speeds tend to be noisy, not because the are nuclear powered alone but because they have pumps to cool the reactor and turbines to turn the screw. Now there have been experiments to overcome this. There have been US Subs with a turbo-electric drive instead of a turbine (Glenard P. Lipscomb and Tullibee), both were very quiet but the TE drive was complex, and resulted in slower speeds than turbine equipped subs. The Narwhal had a natural circulation reactor with sea water intakes that gets rid of the coolant pumps. Narwhal was quite possibly the quietest SSN ever built. Her natural circulation reactor (but not the sea water intakes) were repeated on the Ohio SSBNs and maybe other submarines. Natural circulation reactors have also been used on Russian Nuc boats and on the French Rubis class attack boats. At low speeds a Natural Circulation boat will run almost as quiet as a SSK on batteries but still be capable of high SSN Speeds on demand. Personally I think Natural Circulation is the best option for submarine population, especially for submarines tasked with ASW.

As for weapon outfits SSN and SSK have much the same weapons capabilities (diesels tend to have more tubes in fact), although some SSNs have VLS tubes. Nuc boats also have space for larger sensors meaning they are better suited for ASW.

Amazing info TLAM, thank you.

I was wondering if you have an opinion on why the U.S. will not develop a coastal SSK?
From my very ignorant,but learning point of view it would seem prudent for a number of reasons ,for the US navy to do so.
Like to stay current with the technology, & to save $$, (an SSK has to be cheaper than a SSN), just to name a few.
My haunch is that, often the US is makes the best boat politically & not sensibly.

But again, I must confess I know very little about either type of boat, their strengths, weaknesses, tactical abilities etc..Thats why I come here, to learn more. In fact, as of lately I can almost always be found with my nose in a submarine book or here.

TLAM Strike · 03-11-11, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buck_O

Amazing info TLAM, thank you.

I was wondering if you have an opinion on why the U.S. will not develop a coastal SSK?
From my very ignorant,but learning point of view it would seem prudent for a number of reasons ,for the US navy to do so.
Like to stay current with the technology, & to save $$, (an SSK has to be cheaper than a SSN), just to name a few.
My haunch is that, often the US is makes the best boat politically & not sensibly.

But again, I must confess I know very little about either type of boat, their strengths, weaknesses, tactical abilities etc..Thats why I come here, to learn more. In fact, as of lately I can almost always be found with my nose in a submarine book or here.

Interesting factoid, until 2007 the US Navy operated diesel submarines...

... I'm not sh!ting you...

... we had one, the USS Dolphin AGSS 555. and while she was not a combat boat she was very useful. However the nuc lobby is strong so unless something major changes it will in nucs in the US navy for a good while longer.But thats not to say a SSN could be useful in an environment that a SSK would be at home in. The USS Tullibee and French Rubis class SSNs were very small and quiet with their turbo-electric or natural circulation reactors (TE for the Tullibee and NCR for the Rubis).

I could see a small quiet SSN as a littoral based SSK killer.

02-08-11, 11:36 AM	#1
Elektroniikka-Asentaja Loader Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Hiding from Dowly Posts: 81 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	Something I really didn't expect to see I was interested about the Paradox's naval RTS game and ended up talking about it in another forums and someone posted me a link: I was amazed because of two reasons 1. I never thought that Sweden would have invested in such submarine technology 2. Submarine that can stay submerged for a month, is able to sink an aircraft carrier with one or two hits and is able to play cat and mouse in San Diego military harbor without getting caught Pretty awesome __________________ Elektroniikka-Asentaja = Electronics Assembler. In finnish, Just in case someone wants to know.. New rig for noisy running: Desktop w/ Asus P5QC motherboard, Intel Core 2 Duo 2,94 GHz processor, ATI Radeon HD 4800 series graphics, 4 GB DDR3 Ram and 1297 GB hard drive memory There is a good possibility that the above post was written with a phone so please forgive the typos

02-08-11, 12:03 PM	#2
Herr-Berbunch Kaiser Bill's batman Join Date: May 2010 Location: AN72 Posts: 13,203 Downloads: 76 Uploads: 0	Modern nuclear subs can remain underwater indefinately, they create their own water and oxygen, the only thing they need to come up for is food (and mail - or there'd be a mutiny!) And that footage is from 2006? There! Who needs TLAM? __________________

02-08-11, 12:28 PM	#3
Elektroniikka-Asentaja Loader Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Hiding from Dowly Posts: 81 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	Well it isn't very new clip at least.. Only thing that boat needs is top speed of 80 knots and it is equal to my Tambor class boats in SHIV Being surface ship skipper is getting more and more dangerous as it seems to be easier to develop new submarine than something that detects it __________________ Elektroniikka-Asentaja = Electronics Assembler. In finnish, Just in case someone wants to know.. New rig for noisy running: Desktop w/ Asus P5QC motherboard, Intel Core 2 Duo 2,94 GHz processor, ATI Radeon HD 4800 series graphics, 4 GB DDR3 Ram and 1297 GB hard drive memory There is a good possibility that the above post was written with a phone so please forgive the typos

02-09-11, 09:33 AM	#10
raymond6751 Admirable Mike Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 1,313 Downloads: 421 Uploads: 0	Sound of silence I've read that nuke boats are noisy when compared to the diesel-electrics. They (nukes) are a threat based on their weapons carried. The DE boats are a threat by silence. Since most of the subs built are not nuke powered, they represent the actual state of the art. Just as most wars are settled by the conventional forces rather than the fancy gadgets, the naval wars will be settled by the simple, time-tested silent service. __________________ My stuff: https://www.authorsden.com/mikeraymond

02-09-11, 09:21 AM	#9
Penguin Ocean Warrior Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Rheinische Republik Posts: 3,322 Downloads: 92 Uploads: 0	Ok, got it. Thanks for your elaboration. I would love to check out the 212 one day, afaik there has been no possibilities yet for civilians to visit it.