The all purpose terrorism thread featuring plenty of allah akbar

[August]

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

By now, I am only surprised nothing happened in Germany yet.
But it is only a matter of time.
Scary thought.

Munich 1972 was the last incident? That's a record to envy. You folks must be doing something right.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by August

Munich 1972 was the last incident? That's a record to envy. You folks must be doing something right.

Munich '80 looks like the last one with casualties in double figures. Although if you tote up the deaths from Red Army Faction over the years.
But yes, they must be doing something right in general, but unfortunately I fear the refugee situation will result in something happening. It's pretty inevitable that Daesh will have hid agents in the groups, so it's only a matter of time before another attack happens somewhere.
I, personally, think we've been lucky to have had such low casualties rates since 2001, especially considering that back in the aftermath of 9/11 everyone was predicting that there would be another 9/11 sized attack before the decade was out.

[Tchocky]

Oberon, it's not luck. The takeaway from those figures is that no matter where you go or who you meet, the number of people who want to murder innocent people in cold blood is vanishingly, astonishingly low. Get easily led people caughtup in a war like in Syria, fine, the blinkered horizons can easily enforce a totalitarian worldview. Not so in the West.

Last major one Munich? Makes sense, I can't think of another more recent in the same vein so let's go with that.

I guess the major point from that is that there has been an incredibly low level of Islamist terrorism.

Not nothing, but low overall.

So perhaps, perhaps, there's more heat than light being added to this debate.

The last major incidents in Western Europe- Madrid 11/M, London 7/7 and both Paris attacks this year. It's even lower in the US.

And yet.

To listen to the bigots on this forum we should have expected a lot more.

But they're never wrong. As long as you can dress up a problem in apocalyptic terms, conflate everyone of a certain faith entering your country with a murderous ideology, and reinforce the colossal mass of opinionated morons who confuse contrarianism with wisdom, who cares?

As long as there's some illusory threat to rail against, stupidity has an advantage.

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by mapuc

According to a Norwegian news paper who have their information from the Norwegian NSB=FBI

About 200-250 special trained Daesh people are in Europe and ready to do terror.

Don't know how reliable these information are.

Markus

BEST 2 CONSIDER IT RELIABLE: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=2345182#post2345182

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

As long as you can dress up a problem in apocalyptic terms, conflate everyone of a certain faith entering your country with a murderous ideology, and reinforce the colossal mass of opinionated morons who confuse contrarianism with wisdom, who cares?

Maybe said bigots fear more than just terror attacks? Maybe they see bad things happening in their neighborhoods outside of terror?

Here are some of my experiences:

If you know two women who have repeatedly been beaten up by their boyfriends and both of said boyfriends were Muslims then that is probably just a coincidence...

If a Turkish-German head of a security company tells you that they usually have no problems with Germans but with "foreigners" at the festivals and discotheques they protect then that's just a coincidence....

When the newspapers say "The perpetrator looked southlandish" (which is PC for Turk, Arab, Afghan) in about every second or third story about someone being robbed or mugged then that's just a coincidence as well and us bigots are just stupid.

When your boss tells you that they had a Muslim coworker who kept bullying the other workers and finally physically attacked the boss when being called out on it then that's of course just a coincidence that has no meaning. (BTW that guy was also known to beat up his wife and had some assault charges against him...coincidence of course...).

My friend's adopted son from Kenya was bullied in elementary school for being black to a degree where he didn't want to go to school anymore. Not by the Germans but the Turkish kids. The parents didn't give a hoot because black people are beneath them. He had to take his boy off of that school and send him to a private one were he is happy again now. Just coincidence of course...Who teaches his elementary school aged kids that black people are inferior?

When I was in elementary school we had one boy who kept stealing like there was no tomorrow and beating up others. He was Turkish and got thrown off that school in first grade. It takes quite something to be thrown off of a German elementary school in first grade. Just a coincidence of course...

But we are just stupid of course and there is nothing to be seen here. Move along.

[Dowly]

I think saying that Islam has nothing to do with certain problems in countries which have received refugees in the past 6 months is naive. Of course the culture of many middle eastern countries have been sculpted by interpretations of said religion. Much like many western countries have been sculpted by reformed christianity, in other words: interpretation of said religion. Expecting that people coming from so very different culture wont cause any trouble is just silly.

I also find it funny how certain people say muslims should not be generalised by the actions of some. Yet, every critic of muslims/islam are a) extremists and b) buying the "fear" papers sell them.

Anyways, that's just my opinion.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Dowly

I think saying that Islam has nothing to do with certain problems in countries which have received refugees in the past 6 months is naive. Of course the culture of many middle eastern countries have been sculpted by interpretations of said religion. Much like many western countries have been sculpted by reformed christianity, in other words: interpretation of said religion. Expecting that people coming from so very different culture wont cause any trouble is just silly.

I also find it funny how certain people say muslims should not be generalised by the actions of some. Yet, every critic of muslims/islam are a) extremists and b) buying the "fear" papers sell them.

Anyways, that's just my opinion.

It's all interpretation though, to be honest, which is down to people rather than the religion itself. Islam and Christianity are one thing, how people interpret and react to them is another.

[Dan D]

BBC: The Taliban in Afghanistan have set up a special forces unit to fight IS:
Why Taliban special forces are fighting Islamic State

" ...has more than 1,000 fighters - better equipped and trained than regular Taliban and with the sole aim of crushing IS".

Originally Posted by Oberon

It's all interpretation though, to be honest, which is down to people rather than the religion itself. Islam and Christianity are one thing, how people interpret and react to them is another.

I stopped giving a damn what or who interprets this book in what way and who is a "real muslim" and who isn't etc.
At this point, I just want the problem to be gone.

They debate for decades if Mein Kampf 'the super dangerous book' should ever be printed again in Germany or if, only with comments (as it happened now).

Funny, I think what needs comments is the Quran, since it seems to lead people to do terrible things. Or, you know, just put the whole crappy book under "hate speech" and be done with it.
Enough is enough.

When the muslims go crazy about it, ask them to stay and accept it, or to leave when their religion is more important than a stable society free of voodoo-bs.

/rant
(sorry)

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

I stopped giving a F what or who interpretes this book in what way and who is a "real muslim" and who isn't etc.
At this point, I just want the problem to be gone.

They debate for decades if Mein Kampf 'the super dangerous book' should ever be printed again in Germany or if, only with comments (as it happened now).

Funny, I think what needs comments is the Quran, since it seems to lead people to do terrible things. Or, you know, just put the whole crappy book under "hate speech" and be done with it.
Enough is enough.

When the muslims go crazy about it, ask them to stay and accept it, or to leave when their religion is more important than a stable society free of voodoo-bs.

/rant
(sorry)

If only it was as simple as banning a book, but sadly not even banning Mein Kampf got rid of Nazi-ism in Germany, just pushed it underground, made people hide it until it bubbled up from time to time in ugly outbursts.
Of course, banning that book only came after a lengthy war which killed millions, and then there's the other book which is probably just as bad and that's Marx's 'Communist Manifesto', and Mao Tse-Tungs 'Little Red book'.
All have lead to the deaths of millions, and yet only Mein Kampf was banned in its home country, because Germany lost.

I don't think there is any easy solution to this problem because it is a part of human nature, you will always get people arguing over their interpretations of something, in fact, a good part of this thread could be constituted as people disagreeing over the interpretation of Muslims. Only we haven't got so far as trying to kill each other over it...yet. ()

However, I don't see any advantages to furthering devisiveness in an already divided community, I don't see how the 'us vs them' mentality is going to get us anywhere other than deeper into the mire that we're already in. If we further the image that there is some sort of war between the west and the entirity of Islam, the image that the likes of Daesh want to create, then I don't see how doing Daeshs work for them is going to net us any particular reward.

But, there is a problem, and I don't know if it's a problem that's small enough for us to solve without resorting to some sort of drastic change in our mentality, which isn't something that's possible in the timeframe that we have. It's like a cycle of mistrust, and humans tend to focus on the negative aspects of it. Schroeder has had plenty of bad experiences with Turks, for example, thus he has a negative viewpoint towards them. I have not had these experiences, thus I do not have that same viewpoint. There are likely at least one positive action by a Turkish-German for each negative action that Schroeder has born witness to, but either he has not witnessed them or he does not remember them, because the human brain has a knack for focusing on negative things over positive things, I don't know why, but it's why bad news sells better than good.

Again, ultimately it comes down to the individual person and problems of generalisation. I recently had a conversation with August which drew my attention to the fact that I make the same generalisations as I have criticised others for when I generalise right wing pro-gun viewpoints, I tend to have more exposure to right wing radicals than I do to left-wing ones, and as such I view the right-wing as being more...radical, shall we say, than the left. This is of course wrong, but my online experience which has in of itself been tailored by my own existing left-wing views means that I have built up a form of bias against right-wing viewpoints while at the same time being more sympathetic to left-wing viewpoints. That's only human nature but it's something that I have to periodically step back from and force myself to try to look at both sides of the story at hand...remind myself that not all right-wing thinkers are neo-nazis or gun-loving nutjobs, just as others should remind themselves that not all left-wing thinkers are gun-hating, communist nutjobs.

It's a messy world, this is a messy situation, but we need to encourage open minds, not closed ones, and that goes for both sides, not just for us westerners, it is, after all, a two way street. If a Muslim refugee family are willing to come to Germany, work, live and worship by the rules of Germany and the Qu'ran, as much as Christians abide by the rules of Germany and the bible, then we should be able to treat them with the respect that they deserve. If they break the laws, they should go to prison, no special treatment or Sharia law, because the laws of Germany are the laws of Germany. Admittedly these laws are based upon over a thousand years of Christianity, just as the laws of Middle Eastern nations are based on a thousand years of Islam, and ultimately the future of these laws are up to the people of that nation to decide upon. If the people of Saudi Arabia want westernisation then they will achieve it or some form of it, but it will take them time, blood and sacrifice to get there, and it is really not our place to dictate our laws to them just as it is not their place to dictate their laws to us. It is as wrong for a Muslim to demand Sharia law in Germany as it is for a German to demand non-Sharia law in Saudi Arabia.
We may not like it, we may think it barbaric, but it is not ours to change.

Dammit, I keep sidetracking myself, no wonder I derail my own threads.


In short, I don't think banning anything works particularly well, as has been pointed out to me before in the gun threads, banning firearms won't stop criminals from owning firearms. Banning Mein Kampf in Germany didn't stop neo-nazis from obtaining it, and banning the Qu'ran won't stop Muslims from owning it.
A society should be able to discourage a group without resorting to state laws banning such things, people should know enough from the past to know where radicalism ends up, and if they don't then we need to teach them.

And as rants go, that wasn't so bad.

[Dan D]

Just to make things clear: the book "Mein Kampf" was never forbidden in Germany.
You are e.g. allowed to sell the existing pre-1945 copies in Germany.

The copyright for the book was inherited by the German state Bavaria until now because as we know Hitler had no kids and none of his relatives ever showed up to claim the copyright.

The state Bavaria decided to release no new copies (past-1945) and sued everyone who violated the copyright. The copyright now runs out after 70 years and so Bavaria can no longer make copyright claims.

*****
Second: the whole "hate speech" thing is not known to the German legal system. That concept derives from the Anglosphere via the Internet. It does not fit here right now, as the German and American Constitutional law has a different emphasis with regard to "free speech". Of course, you could try to introduce the "hate speech" concept in Germany, but at present, you would confuse people, because no one knows wtf you are talking about.

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by Dan D

*****
Second: the whole "hate speech" thing is not known to the German legal system. That concept derives from the Anglosphere via the Internet. It does not fit here right now, as the German and American Constitutional law has a different emphasis with regard to "free speech". Of course, you could try to introduce the "hate speech" concept in Germany, but at present, you would confuse people, because no one knows wtf you are talking about.

Volksverhetzung.

[Rockstar]

Immigration is a big pain in the hind end.

Having witnessed massive immigration into a city I once lived in. I think options are few. Unless government blockades entrance change is inevitable and the force behind it unstoppable. Language, culture, demographics, crime rates, businesses, you name it, it all changes and I soon became a minority.

The thing is nobody assimilated into a unified culture. Instead within the city it now is Little Haiti, Little Cuba, Little El Salvador, Little Honduras etc etc. Each pretty much with its established boundaries, language and cultures. Instead of sitting around the campfire singing kumbya Miami has become even further racially and culturally divided. But it is a pretty cool place to visit provided you know the city and stay on the beaten path.

But I said before though. The U.S. is big we got a lot of land mass to absorb such things. Crowded little countries like Germany? Well, I think its a little tuffer to deal with.

Having been in the trenches, the best advice I can give is learn the language, put bars on your doors and windows, or move somewhere else.

[Dan D]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

Immigration is a big pain in the hind end.

....
But I said before though. The U.S. is big we got a lot of land mass to absorb such things. Crowded little countries like Germany? Well, I think its a little tuffer to deal with.
....

Germany is in need of people who are willing to immigrate to Germany, otherwhise e.g our pension scheme will collapse sooner or later, if you look at the demographics.

So we are not a cramped little country, like you seem to think. And we have the jobs.

We can't keep up our present living standards without immigrants. If you leave this years' refugees aside, more people do emigrate from Germany than immigrate. If it is said, 1 million refugees have come to Germany, we need at least 7 million people over the next years.

The decision to take in refugees from Syria is based on the idea that Syria has the best educational system in that part of the world.

[August]

Originally Posted by Dan D

Germany is in need of people who are willing to immigrate to Germany, otherwhise e.g our pension scheme will collapse sooner or later, if you look at the demographics.

Germany has added over 11 million more people to your population since WW2. How come the pension scheme depends even higher population growth than that?