Tom Hanks' new convoy war movie: Greyhound

[merc4ulfate]

Originally Posted by Subnuts

... doing Age-of-Sail style drive-bys on American destroyers ...

Actually that is exactly how Günther Prien and Otto Kretschmer lost their U Boats. U Boat commanders were not nearly as afraid of surface conflict as their allied counterparts. Granted, they would dive to avoid the escorts when needed but would often resurface to reengage the convoy. During night attacks it was much harder to find them on the surface than submerged where ASDIC could be used.

[Catfish]

I will sure watch it, Hollywood or not. I would have thought though that certain stereotypes would have been overcome meanwhile.. "Good luck surviving the day..."? Please.

[John Pancoast]

Originally Posted by merc4ulfate

Actually that is exactly how Günther Prien and Otto Kretschmer lost their U Boats. U Boat commanders were not nearly as afraid of surface conflict as their allied counterparts. Granted, they would dive to avoid the escorts when needed but would often resurface to reengage the convoy. During night attacks it was much harder to find them on the surface than submerged where ASDIC could be used.

Fwiw, from what I've learned over time, Kretschmer lost his boat when an officer ordered a dive when in Kretschmer's mind, he shouldn't have, allowing them to get picked up via asdic. Kretschmer believing the escort wouldn't have seen them if they'd stayed surfaced, and he could have slipped away into the night. As it turned out, he was right; the British ship "Walker" had not seen U-99.

Kretschmer never forgave said officer for that order.

Numerous theories on Prien's loss since it's not 100% known. Kretschmer states on the AOD cd I believe, his opinion that one of Prien's own torpedoes sunk him. But no one knows for sure what happened. But it wasn't on the surface.

There's an entire section about his loss in Blair's books (along with some of the above Kretschmer info.) in which a depth charge attack by two escorts near his position (boat was never seen) is given credit by the British but never confirmed, along with various other theories including again his own torpedo.


Regardless, engaging a convoy in a "surface conflict" is one thing. Choosing to be right beside an escort having a gun duel with it is another.

[John Pancoast]

Side note regarding Hanks, he does one of his better roles portraying Walt Disney in "Saving Mr. Banks", the story of how the story of Mary Poppins came about.

[merc4ulfate]

Originally Posted by John Pancoast

Fwiw, from what I've learned over time, Kretschmer lost his boat when an officer ordered a dive when in Kretschmer's mind, he shouldn't have, allowing them to get picked up via asdic.

That is correct. Kretschmer had a standing order to "not" submerge knowing that upon an escort sighting they might not have been seen away so they then could use their surface speed to gain a better position or escape.

Playing the game I do the same thing all the time. With Operation Monsun running inside a convoy surfaced was a lot of fun. I have been playing the latest version of Fall of the Rising Sun Ultimate on the allied side and that is way way harder to do.

[kapuhy]

Re: "drive-by"

Just speculation on my part, but in other shots we can see U-Boat surfacing in front of the destroyer, and in other, a destroyer narrowly avoiding "down the throat" torpedo shot. In the movie it could go like this - badly damaged in DC attack, U-boat can't keep submerged anymore and blows ballast just as destroyer returns for another attack. This gives U-boat opportunity for last ditch attempt at torpedoing the DD, which fails (but succeeds in providing audience with edge-of-the-seat thrill in the final battle) and then DD just continues forward passing extremely close to now helpless U-boat while ravaging it with artillery.

[John Pancoast]

Originally Posted by kapuhy

Re: "drive-by"

Just speculation on my part, but in other shots we can see U-Boat surfacing in front of the destroyer, and in other, a destroyer narrowly avoiding "down the throat" torpedo shot. In the movie it could go like this - badly damaged in DC attack, U-boat can't keep submerged anymore and blows ballast just as destroyer returns for another attack. This gives U-boat opportunity for last ditch attempt at torpedoing the DD, which fails (but succeeds in providing audience with edge-of-the-seat thrill in the final battle) and then DD just continues forward passing extremely close to now helpless U-boat while ravaging it with artillery.

I was thinking that too; hard to actually tell what the actual scene is with all the stupid millisecond sound/video bites.

But with all the rest of the blatant Hollywood/Ramboism of the trailer, odds are against the scene making sense. <g>

[John Pancoast]

Originally Posted by merc4ulfate

That is correct. Kretschmer had a standing order to "not" submerge knowing that upon an escort sighting they might not have been seen away so they then could use their surface speed to gain a better position or escape.

Playing the game I do the same thing all the time. With Operation Monsun running inside a convoy surfaced was a lot of fun. I have been playing the latest version of Fall of the Rising Sun Ultimate on the allied side and that is way way harder to do.

Ok, I guess I misunderstood your earlier post seeming to state Kretschmer and Prien's boats were lost via surface duels similar to the one in the trailer clip.

[ABBAFAN]

Originally Posted by John Pancoast

Fwiw, from what I've learned over time, Kretschmer lost his boat when an officer ordered a dive when in Kretschmer's mind, he shouldn't have, allowing them to get picked up via asdic. Kretschmer believing the escort wouldn't have seen them if they'd stayed surfaced, and he could have slipped away into the night. As it turned out, he was right; the British ship "Walker" had not seen U-99.

Kretschmer never forgave said officer for that order.

.

Shouldn’t Kretschmer have been giving the orders? Or was it a case of not being able to countermand them in time?

[John Pancoast]

Originally Posted by ABBAFAN

Shouldn’t Kretschmer have been giving the orders? Or was it a case of not being able to countermand them in time?

Not necessarily. I.e., standard sailors on watch wouldn't/couldn't/shouldn't wait for the skipper's order to crash dive upon spotting an airplane. But maybe so (your point), not sure.
In terms of a countermand, guess not. Once picked up on asdic at close quarters, surfacing wouldn't have been an option anyway.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by ABBAFAN

Shouldn’t Kretschmer have been giving the orders? Or was it a case of not being able to countermand them in time?

He was below and the order was given before he was aware of the situation as I understand events.

[John Pancoast]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

He was below and the order was given before he was aware of the situation as I understand events.

Thanks !

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

He was below and the order was given before he was aware of the situation as I understand events.

He warn't called 'Silent Otto' fer nuthin'! I Came across this easy to read site for all the novice bilgerats to conveniently absorb! https://naval-encyclopedia.com/battl...e-atlantic.php

[FireDragon76]

Originally Posted by merc4ulfate

Actually that is exactly how Günther Prien and Otto Kretschmer lost their U Boats. U Boat commanders were not nearly as afraid of surface conflict as their allied counterparts. Granted, they would dive to avoid the escorts when needed but would often resurface to reengage the convoy. During night attacks it was much harder to find them on the surface than submerged where ASDIC could be used.

This even works out in Silent Hunter IV with American boats. I've had situations where it was safer to slip past a Japanese coastal patrol on the surface rather than submerged

[les green01]

too me this movie was like watching the new movie midway i just cant get into it