US Politics Thread 2016-2020 - Page 473

Skybird · 06-09-19, 01:21 PM

The experimental setup decides on what results are possible to materialise, and which one forever will never have any probability of that at all.

This is the value and the curse in science at the same time. Responsible scientists are always aware of that and try to work accoridingly. Manipulative authors are always aware of that and try to work accordingly as well. Still, both act by completely different motives and with very different ambitions, aiming at very different results. The one is ready to see any result. The other wants to command a wanted result.

Rockstar · 06-09-19, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

Scientific methods.. so you think the outcome of experiments is different depending on the prober having a "left" or "right" agenda?
What you describe is not "science".

What you describe has indeed infected universities in Europe, but mostly this is based on lobbyism from interfering companies, especially in the medical sector. Write your dissertation on a product of ours, and we pay but would prefer a certain outcome. Significant statistics not needed. This foremost serves capitalistic ideas, meaning it is rather "non-left" lol

Experiments and results are what they are. What people make of it is a different question.
When certain people discover a rare species of hamsters in a to-be-built airport area they can either try to block the construction to save the animals, or they can say there are enough others, or profit is more important. You decide which is the more "scientific" method.

No I didnt say that, I was under the impression you did though when you politicized the argument 'being a firm believer' someone must be a far right/left extremist kook because they don't agree with your science.

JU_88 · 06-10-19, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

Back to national isolated states. Back to tribes.
It is as if no one ever has learned something.

I'd like to know how do you think we got here exactly?
10 years ago the rise of the 'far right' or nationalism was was unpopular as it was unthinkable .
So what changed in that time? Hint: it wasn't the 2008 economic crash- that very clearly and immediately gave rise to both economic socialist and libertarian movements - not nationalism/tribalism.

And in response tot he many failures of the Establishment- what have the fringes of the right & left spectrum been obsessively screeching about in the past decade? two words... 'group identity' & 'culture'

Skybird · 06-11-19, 12:38 AM

How we got here, is clear.

The socialist party in Denmark has won past elections a few days ago by - praising very tough migration regulation. With that they chased the ruling rights out of office. So try to do so-called right-wing populist parties across all the continent.

-----

There are four factors that are massively causing fallout influencing the rise of the the "populists" (and I woudl insist to claim the loudest populists there are are the pro-EC claqueurs):

1. Enforced migration of unqualified, often culturally incompatible and actively integration-resisting fporigners, mostly males, from African and Muslim countries, and active enforcing locals' adaptation to and tolerance for the demands of an ever growing Islam.

2. The systematical deconstruction of masculine role figures, the (left-wanted) destruction of the social core cell of core families, and the overboarding gender BS madness and the feminist sexual discrimination of males that malicvously gets sold under the label "equality", but in fact wants a clear female dominance and female special rights and even the femalization of boys and men.

3. Climate-focussed self infantilisation rooting in the naive mental heritage of the German romantic era.

4. Excessive power-grabbing by the EU that claims regulative administrative command far beyond just being a trade organization and free trade zone, but abuses its power to boost further points 1, 2 and 3 above.

Interestingly, the FIAT currency system, national debt explosion, and massive redistribution from Northern to Southern nations in the block seem to play little or no role in most people'S perceptions - although it affects thgeir economic existence more directly than anything else. I can explain that only by lacking education and knowledge. The propaganda machinery of the established political parasites as well as of the populist opposition does the rest.

Action has reaction. Force inflicted, returns. The further the EU and the stupid Zeitgeist pushes, the more hostility to them will grow. Personally I learned to think that without being faced with most direct threats to his mere existence, man tends to stray off with his focus into the realm of the obscure and the absurd. Existential boredom, so to speak. It seems danger and conflict and threat are what keep us focussed and constructively creative. I think that also is part of the truth in that idiom on war as the father of all things. And why obedience towards a dogmatic or totalitarian collective hierarchy is so very tempting for many people. Lets face it, most people, the vast, vast majority, think in terms of "leaders" and "peasants". They want the structure of a authoritatiove hierarchy, and a simple belief system - both poltically and religiously - that provides clean and simple guidance on what goes and what not, to bring order into a cosmos of chaos and to bring meaning into one'S own life. Life is a traffic light.

I even go as far as saying that most people do not really want freedom, not if they are aware of the consequences it implies. They only claim to want it, for the nice odor and sound around this "pathetic value". Popular freedom mostly is with - unscrupulous criminals (which in no way means to imply that freedom is criminal).

JU_88 · 06-11-19, 06:51 AM

@ Sky, its pendulum effect. every 20-30 years we swing to right then back to the left and so on.
Its only scarier this time as the rhetoric is more extreme than usual. with acts of physical violence and calls for authoritarian intervention, to 'make them go away' (them being 'the other side of the argument'.)

The immigration discussion is so damn complicated, its near impossible to get past the surface level. neither right nor left really wants to dig in to root of it. because that is a very messy conversation on western culture/society/economics that's even MORE uncomfortable, as half of it will undermine both their values.

But yeah, opinion is roughly split between working class right wing populists, and left wing middle class progressives, because they live in two completely different realities, and have a completely different world view.
The former takes more pride in national/regional cultural identity, the latter takes more pride in internationalist multi-cultural identity.

Nothing wrong with either of those things really so long as you can balance them. The problem when one one side tells the other - I think you should be FORCED to adopt my set of values entirely and if you don't like it i'm going to use slurs because your an evil person.
And the more they resent each other, the more they go out of their way to be polar opposites, not because its always 'rational', but - just to spite the other and score one for the team.
and there is your far right/left 'radicalization'. (The Media has been heavily fueling this in recent times, since they found it to be very lucrative)

But the main reason I quoted catfish, is that he implied the very nature of tribalism, (citing national identity) is backwards, a statement imo that is in itself tribal- towards the tribe of western progressivsm. Point being, everyone is tribal on some level.
You cant truely despise tribalism unless you are impartial and diplomatic to a near impossible standard.

JU_88 · 06-11-19, 09:09 AM

Yeah things have changed alot for men and women, gender roles etc.
Its kind of the elephant in the room.
Immigration is one of the key reason we are still going. I think if it wasn't for that, many western economies would have arguably fallen at the point they dipped too far below the replacement rate to sustain themselves and their elderly.

Women joining the work force en mass had a huge impact each place it happened.
Over time you eventually double your labour force, so short term - Economic BOOM.
But then come the side effects, With the free market running the show - You half the value of the labour force, so now husband and wife in most cases must both go to work to earn enough to support the family and find childcare.
So the State must step in to provide some support, especially for single parents, where the state is now expected to be a surrogate dad as well. (in many but not all cases)
Now men and women are no longer so symbiotic, they don't really need each other as they once did. there is no more social shame in being a bachelor at 40. you can go off in pursuit of self fulfillment, our only social responsibly is to sustain ourselves by earning money.
Also neighbor hoods became emptier during working hours, no longer was there a stay home spouse to chat to the neighbors, suddenly, people hardly know their neighbors anymore! communities get weaker. bored youth get crazier, because if if you don't know your neighbors, why should you care them? they don't care about you right? (certainly true of inner cities)

I think what wasn't appreciated just how valuable the stay at home mom (or dad) was, they were kind of the glue holding alot more together that they got credit for.
And more recently feminists (who now have alot more clout and reach than they use to) have not helped by actively attacking /shaming women who adopt traditional gender roles.

But what can you do?
it was never fair or right to deny women and girls the same right to self determination as boys and men.
Even if it wasn't always necessarily enforced by some evil patriarchal law. it was done though social stigma, etiquette and expectation. Its not hard to put myself in a womans shoes, and think: well how would i have liked that.

But yeah women's emancipation was a big deal in more ways than one. it along with liberal values and a decline in religion and marriage, meant, men and women were less dependent on each other and more focused on indervidual freedom and pursuit of money other vices besides a family.

Western lifestyle is big factor too, the world has way more to offer for hobbies, interests, travel socializing etc. than it once did,
Now we have guys in their 30s dropping out of society, staying home in baseball caps drinking fizzy drinks, watching superhero movies and playing video games.... :P
And more ambitious career focused women who just want to work, date and see the world while they are young. but they are not so interested in the above mentioned men, because women typically like to pair up across and up hierarchies, but they rarely look down.
And by the time the biological clock starts ticking, its already too late. nobody is really warning them of this anymore. it is too old fashioned and Un-PC to do so.

and all that amounts to Less kids and the need for alot of immigrants to come and pick up that baton for us.

So there we go..... This kind of why many other parts of the world emulate/adopt western systems up to a certain point - and then they stop.
they are worried about their own cultural & ethnic self preservation to some extent. They see our societal experiments and the results very clearly.
They understandably would rather be the nation that over produces people that they can afford to export them, rather than the nation that under produces people and has to import them.

Catfish · 06-12-19, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JU_88

I'd like to know how do you think we got here exactly?
10 years ago the rise of the 'far right' or nationalism was was unpopular as it was unthinkable .
So what changed in that time? Hint: it wasn't the 2008 economic crash- that very clearly and immediately gave rise to both economic socialist and libertarian movements - not nationalism/tribalism. [...]'

For me it is not about left or right, they both take what they need to push their agenda. What i said and what is still my opinion is that a certain education will usually not put you at the far(!) right of the spectrum. And, with the knowledge and experience of the past decades also not at the far(!) left.
But what is an almost neutral stance in Europe seems to be far left in the US. I cannot imagine anymore what communism is for the US, when liberals or democrats are already described as being "ultra-left".

Regarding evolution or where social development or science have brought humans .. certain distinctive human attributes that have contributed to the development of scientific inquiry and logical deduction have somewhat paradoxically generated knowledge which denies humanity its value and distinctiveness in this big uncaring universe. The earth is not the center of the universe, mankind is most probably not alone, and the earth's peoples' shortcomings outweigh the accomplishments.
A lot of people find this hard to take, so i take it that denying science is their only way to get that warm and fuzzy feeling of self-importance back.

u crank · 06-12-19, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

For me it is not about left or right, they both take what they need to push their agenda. What i said and what is still my opinion is that a certain education will usually not put you at the far(!) right of the spectrum. And, with the knowledge and experience of the past decades also not at the far(!) left.

It is unfortunate that the extremists in both camps can and do have an outsized influence. But that very education is what, at least in Canada and the US is influencing and driving the far left. It is indoctrination when it comes to social and political issues. One plus one will always be two, but the question then is can a scientific application be driven by so called social justice agendas?

Kptlt. Neuerburg · 06-12-19, 08:31 AM

Not quite sure if this video belongs here but I think it should.

Mr Quatro · 06-12-19, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kptlt. Neuerburg

Not quite sure if this video belongs here but I think it should.

Due to past Political mistakes of allowing the enemy access to our country at the cost of many millions of dollars and the whole Iran transfer of funds amounting to billions of dollars ... I think it belongs here.

America has lost it 's priority to it's citizens especially the ones that suffered at ground zero on 911.

Restore the promise to take care of them

Onkel Neal · 06-26-19, 04:35 PM

Should be a good show tonight, 10 Democrats trying to make an impression

em2nought · 06-26-19, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

Should be a good show tonight, 10 Democrats trying to make an impression

"Show" is a very apt word for it.

eddie · 06-26-19, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by em2nought

"Show" is a very apt word for it.

Can't be any worse then the freak show the retard in the White House puts on everyday,lol

Buddahaid · 06-26-19, 08:54 PM

I find it humorous that Trump is now standing behind respect for the White House and the office of the president after all the crap he's put out before, and after, he got there. Gee, some people think he's a charlatan and don't respect him enough to even respect the office he holds.

What goes around comes around Donald, you're soaking in it now. Enjoy.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/48775195

August · 06-26-19, 09:16 PM

That's what I like about Donald Trump. He continues to piss off all the right people.

06-09-19, 01:21 PM	#7081
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,560 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	The experimental setup decides on what results are possible to materialise, and which one forever will never have any probability of that at all. This is the value and the curse in science at the same time. Responsible scientists are always aware of that and try to work accoridingly. Manipulative authors are always aware of that and try to work accordingly as well. Still, both act by completely different motives and with very different ambitions, aiming at very different results. The one is ready to see any result. The other wants to command a wanted result. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

06-11-19, 12:38 AM	#7084
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,560 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	How we got here, is clear. The socialist party in Denmark has won past elections a few days ago by - praising very tough migration regulation. With that they chased the ruling rights out of office. So try to do so-called right-wing populist parties across all the continent. ----- There are four factors that are massively causing fallout influencing the rise of the the "populists" (and I woudl insist to claim the loudest populists there are are the pro-EC claqueurs): 1. Enforced migration of unqualified, often culturally incompatible and actively integration-resisting fporigners, mostly males, from African and Muslim countries, and active enforcing locals' adaptation to and tolerance for the demands of an ever growing Islam. 2. The systematical deconstruction of masculine role figures, the (left-wanted) destruction of the social core cell of core families, and the overboarding gender BS madness and the feminist sexual discrimination of males that malicvously gets sold under the label "equality", but in fact wants a clear female dominance and female special rights and even the femalization of boys and men. 3. Climate-focussed self infantilisation rooting in the naive mental heritage of the German romantic era. 4. Excessive power-grabbing by the EU that claims regulative administrative command far beyond just being a trade organization and free trade zone, but abuses its power to boost further points 1, 2 and 3 above. Interestingly, the FIAT currency system, national debt explosion, and massive redistribution from Northern to Southern nations in the block seem to play little or no role in most people'S perceptions - although it affects thgeir economic existence more directly than anything else. I can explain that only by lacking education and knowledge. The propaganda machinery of the established political parasites as well as of the populist opposition does the rest. Action has reaction. Force inflicted, returns. The further the EU and the stupid Zeitgeist pushes, the more hostility to them will grow. Personally I learned to think that without being faced with most direct threats to his mere existence, man tends to stray off with his focus into the realm of the obscure and the absurd. Existential boredom, so to speak. It seems danger and conflict and threat are what keep us focussed and constructively creative. I think that also is part of the truth in that idiom on war as the father of all things. And why obedience towards a dogmatic or totalitarian collective hierarchy is so very tempting for many people. Lets face it, most people, the vast, vast majority, think in terms of "leaders" and "peasants". They want the structure of a authoritatiove hierarchy, and a simple belief system - both poltically and religiously - that provides clean and simple guidance on what goes and what not, to bring order into a cosmos of chaos and to bring meaning into one'S own life. Life is a traffic light. I even go as far as saying that most people do not really want freedom, not if they are aware of the consequences it implies. They only claim to want it, for the nice odor and sound around this "pathetic value". Popular freedom mostly is with - unscrupulous criminals (which in no way means to imply that freedom is criminal). __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert. Last edited by Skybird; 06-11-19 at 12:47 AM.

06-11-19, 06:51 AM	#7085
JU_88 Silent Hunter Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: UK Posts: 3,727 Downloads: 11 Uploads: 0	@ Sky, its pendulum effect. every 20-30 years we swing to right then back to the left and so on. Its only scarier this time as the rhetoric is more extreme than usual. with acts of physical violence and calls for authoritarian intervention, to 'make them go away' (them being 'the other side of the argument'.) The immigration discussion is so damn complicated, its near impossible to get past the surface level. neither right nor left really wants to dig in to root of it. because that is a very messy conversation on western culture/society/economics that's even MORE uncomfortable, as half of it will undermine both their values. But yeah, opinion is roughly split between working class right wing populists, and left wing middle class progressives, because they live in two completely different realities, and have a completely different world view. The former takes more pride in national/regional cultural identity, the latter takes more pride in internationalist multi-cultural identity. Nothing wrong with either of those things really so long as you can balance them. The problem when one one side tells the other - I think you should be FORCED to adopt my set of values entirely and if you don't like it i'm going to use slurs because your an evil person. And the more they resent each other, the more they go out of their way to be polar opposites, not because its always 'rational', but - just to spite the other and score one for the team. and there is your far right/left 'radicalization'. (The Media has been heavily fueling this in recent times, since they found it to be very lucrative) But the main reason I quoted catfish, is that he implied the very nature of tribalism, (citing national identity) is backwards, a statement imo that is in itself tribal- towards the tribe of western progressivsm. Point being, everyone is tribal on some level. You cant truely despise tribalism unless you are impartial and diplomatic to a near impossible standard. Last edited by JU_88; 06-11-19 at 07:12 AM.

06-11-19, 09:09 AM	#7086
JU_88 Silent Hunter Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: UK Posts: 3,727 Downloads: 11 Uploads: 0	Yeah things have changed alot for men and women, gender roles etc. Its kind of the elephant in the room. Immigration is one of the key reason we are still going. I think if it wasn't for that, many western economies would have arguably fallen at the point they dipped too far below the replacement rate to sustain themselves and their elderly. Women joining the work force en mass had a huge impact each place it happened. Over time you eventually double your labour force, so short term - Economic BOOM. But then come the side effects, With the free market running the show - You half the value of the labour force, so now husband and wife in most cases must both go to work to earn enough to support the family and find childcare. So the State must step in to provide some support, especially for single parents, where the state is now expected to be a surrogate dad as well. (in many but not all cases) Now men and women are no longer so symbiotic, they don't really need each other as they once did. there is no more social shame in being a bachelor at 40. you can go off in pursuit of self fulfillment, our only social responsibly is to sustain ourselves by earning money. Also neighbor hoods became emptier during working hours, no longer was there a stay home spouse to chat to the neighbors, suddenly, people hardly know their neighbors anymore! communities get weaker. bored youth get crazier, because if if you don't know your neighbors, why should you care them? they don't care about you right? (certainly true of inner cities) I think what wasn't appreciated just how valuable the stay at home mom (or dad) was, they were kind of the glue holding alot more together that they got credit for. And more recently feminists (who now have alot more clout and reach than they use to) have not helped by actively attacking /shaming women who adopt traditional gender roles. But what can you do? it was never fair or right to deny women and girls the same right to self determination as boys and men. Even if it wasn't always necessarily enforced by some evil patriarchal law. it was done though social stigma, etiquette and expectation. Its not hard to put myself in a womans shoes, and think: well how would i have liked that. But yeah women's emancipation was a big deal in more ways than one. it along with liberal values and a decline in religion and marriage, meant, men and women were less dependent on each other and more focused on indervidual freedom and pursuit of money other vices besides a family. Western lifestyle is big factor too, the world has way more to offer for hobbies, interests, travel socializing etc. than it once did, Now we have guys in their 30s dropping out of society, staying home in baseball caps drinking fizzy drinks, watching superhero movies and playing video games.... :P And more ambitious career focused women who just want to work, date and see the world while they are young. but they are not so interested in the above mentioned men, because women typically like to pair up across and up hierarchies, but they rarely look down. And by the time the biological clock starts ticking, its already too late. nobody is really warning them of this anymore. it is too old fashioned and Un-PC to do so. and all that amounts to Less kids and the need for alot of immigrants to come and pick up that baton for us. So there we go..... This kind of why many other parts of the world emulate/adopt western systems up to a certain point - and then they stop. they are worried about their own cultural & ethnic self preservation to some extent. They see our societal experiments and the results very clearly. They understandably would rather be the nation that over produces people that they can afford to export them, rather than the nation that under produces people and has to import them. Last edited by JU_88; 06-11-19 at 10:14 AM.

06-12-19, 08:31 AM	#7089
Kptlt. Neuerburg Admiral Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Florida Posts: 2,250 Downloads: 54 Uploads: 0	Not quite sure if this video belongs here but I think it should. __________________ "When you're born into this world, you're given a ticket to the freak show. If you're born in America you get a front row seat." - George Carlin

06-26-19, 04:35 PM	#7091
Onkel Neal Born to Run Silent Join Date: Jan 1997 Location: Cougar Trap, Texas Posts: 21,289 Downloads: 534 Uploads: 224	Should be a good show tonight, 10 Democrats trying to make an impression __________________ SUBSIM - 26 Years on the Web

06-26-19, 08:54 PM	#7094
Buddahaid Shark above Space Chicken Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 8,566 Downloads: 160 Uploads: 0	I find it humorous that Trump is now standing behind respect for the White House and the office of the president after all the crap he's put out before, and after, he got there. Gee, some people think he's a charlatan and don't respect him enough to even respect the office he holds. What goes around comes around Donald, you're soaking in it now. Enjoy. https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/48775195 __________________ "However vast the darkness, we must provide our own light." Stanley Kubrick "Tomorrow belongs to those who can hear it coming." David Bowie

06-26-19, 09:16 PM	#7095
August Wayfaring Stranger Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 22,686 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	That's what I like about Donald Trump. He continues to piss off all the right people. __________________ Flanked by life and the funeral pyre. Putting on a show for you to see.