Auschwitz guard charged

Von Tonner · 09-16-14, 04:49 AM

A 93 year old former guard is to be charged though he committed no crimes - he was simply a guard. If his only crime was he aided the Nazi regime through been a guard then the entire German army is likewise accountable.

I fully support never giving up in bringing to justice men or woman of whatever age if they committed war crimes, more so when it comes to the atrocities of the likes of Auschwitz - but an old man of 93 who was a guard billited to Auschwitz at the time. In my opinion that is taking it a little too far.

"Unlike most of the others, Groening has openly talked about his time as a guard and says while he witnessed horrific atrocities, he didn't commit any crimes himself.
But Hannover prosecutors said in a statement on Monday he was a cog in the machinery of destruction during his time at Auschwitz in 1944, noting that he helped collect and tally money stolen from murdered inmates.
He thus "helped the Nazi regime benefit economically, and supported the systematic killings".

http://www.news.com.au/world/breakin...b_uid=99350214

Jimbuna · 09-16-14, 05:02 AM

A hard one to call....I agree he was on the periphery of that awful place and carried out no atrocities but he did take part and aid in certain tasks allied to said atrocities.

There are no statute of limitations for these crimes and simply stating "I was following orders" has never and will never be an acceptable defence.

Also taking into account his age I shouldn't imagine the courts would be too harsh.

Eichhörnchen · 09-16-14, 09:33 AM

If you've ever been in a line of military types, expected to take your turn and do something you REALLY didn't want to do, and most of the others probably didn't either (and here I'm only talking about crossing a raging torrent weighed down by a ton of kit, on a little rope which is getting very slack) you'll know how impossible it is to say "I can't do it".

I don't know how guilty this old geezer was, but I think we should cut some slack for some of those guys who knew if they said "no" they'd be the next ones with a bullet-hole in their skull.

HunterICX · 09-16-14, 10:27 AM

Or send to the horrors of the Eastern Front for that matter.

Since he was open about it and spoke about the horrors he witnessed I doubt the guy was there on his free will back in the day.

Betonov · 09-16-14, 10:30 AM

I don't know, it all seems like a waste of time and money by now. Let him go. Grimm reaper or mosad will take care of him soon enough.

Wolferz · 09-16-14, 11:17 AM

I would think that just carrying the memories of that place and time would be punishment enough. Charging him with a count of murder for each and every soul taken by his peers is way over the top. I doubt if he was a supporter of the Nazi regime. Just another unfortunate German citizen who was forced into the military at gunpoint. Now if he joined of his own free will, then he shouldn't be charged with anything more than aiding and abetting. Not 300 million counts of murder. The architects of the holocaust were tried and hung long ago. It's time to leave it all in the past.

Eichhörnchen · 09-16-14, 12:02 PM

I agree with all of that.

Schroeder · 09-16-14, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tribesman

He volunteered of his own free will, he didn't volunteer for the army he volunteered for the SS. That required party membership.

Pretty much everything required party membership.
My great grandfather who would normally not have been drafted because of his age and the number of children he had was given a choice: Join the party or get drafted into the army including a vacation to Russia.... I wouldn't blame anybody to chose to join the party with these odds and stay at home with his family. He chose Russia....

Von Tonner · 09-16-14, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tribesman

He volunteered of his own free will, he didn't volunteer for the army he volunteered for the SS. That required party membership.

Tribesman makes a good point there. If ALL personnel assigned to the death camps (Auschwitz been one of them) were members of the Nazi party then yes, I would agree, they knew fully well what that they had ascribed to. So it does not therefore matter whether he himself did anything that would be defined as a war crime ... the charge would be he OF HIS OWN FREE WILL subscribed and supported a philosophy/ideology that was in all accounts heinous.

That is, if he was a Nazi. And not knowing all the facts, logic would lead me to believe that the Nazi's would NOT employ ordinary German conscripts to the camps.

And yes, on reconsideration, if he was a Nazi, and a guard at the camp....throw the book at him.

Eichhörnchen · 09-16-14, 01:26 PM

Plenty of "low grade" personnel levied from captured territories and often not even European, were dragooned into the SS and given jobs like this. They were not deemed useful as fighting troops by the Nazis so were used for other, often particularly unpleasant, tasks.

If they were all card-carrying members of the Party then it's likely this just came with the uniform...

Eichhörnchen · 09-16-14, 02:01 PM

Fair comment, I didn't know that

Wolferz · 09-16-14, 02:14 PM

Leveling these charges on this guy seems excessive. Especially when you consider that every German citizen at that time knew what was going on and did little or nothing to curb it. If we all wished to be anal about it, the general population of 1940's Germany could be named as accessories to murder. Each and every one of them.
Have they all paid penance?
I think they have.

Aktungbby · 09-16-14, 02:35 PM

HE's 93 years old..."Unlike most of the others, Groening has openly talked about his time as a guard and says while he witnessed horrific atrocities, he didn't commit any crimes himself." Sounds like a well considered retirement plan to me-ie: "let the state pay for his geriatric costs in a minimum-security institution"?? I doubt his military pen$ion is worth mentioning

ikalugin · 09-16-14, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolferz

I would think that just carrying the memories of that place and time would be punishment enough. Charging him with a count of murder for each and every soul taken by his peers is way over the top. I doubt if he was a supporter of the Nazi regime. Just another unfortunate German citizen who was forced into the military at gunpoint. Now if he joined of his own free will, then he shouldn't be charged with anything more than aiding and abetting. Not 300 million counts of murder. The architects of the holocaust were tried and hung long ago. It's time to leave it all in the past.

I appologize for correcting you, but as far as I know less than 300 millions people were murdered in that specific death camp.

BrucePartington · 09-16-14, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolferz

Leveling these charges on this guy seems excessive. Especially when you consider that every German citizen at that time knew what was going on and did little or nothing to curb it. If we all wished to be anal about it, the general population of 1940's Germany could be named as accessories to murder. Each and every one of them.
Have they all paid penance?
I think they have.

Exactly what I think. The German people endured terror as the Nazi party rose to power. To openly oppose it or even speak against it would earn you a guided tour to the Gestapo catacombs. Finally, an entire nation was levelled as its population was decimated to the limit.
IMHO, the German people at large paid for sins they did not commit, and then paid for it again.

Let's not forget the White Rose movement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Rose .
Also, please read about Kurt Gerstein, an SS officer who tried to pass information to the allies about the concentration camps: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Gerstein

Having said that, I agree all those who activelly pursued to commit genocide should be brought to justice and punished accordingly.

Above all, let's try not to repeat History.

09-16-14, 04:49 AM	#1
Von Tonner Seasoned Skipper Join Date: May 2005 Location: South Africa Posts: 711 Downloads: 44 Uploads: 0	Auschwitz guard charged A 93 year old former guard is to be charged though he committed no crimes - he was simply a guard. If his only crime was he aided the Nazi regime through been a guard then the entire German army is likewise accountable. I fully support never giving up in bringing to justice men or woman of whatever age if they committed war crimes, more so when it comes to the atrocities of the likes of Auschwitz - but an old man of 93 who was a guard billited to Auschwitz at the time. In my opinion that is taking it a little too far. "Unlike most of the others, Groening has openly talked about his time as a guard and says while he witnessed horrific atrocities, he didn't commit any crimes himself. But Hannover prosecutors said in a statement on Monday he was a cog in the machinery of destruction during his time at Auschwitz in 1944, noting that he helped collect and tally money stolen from murdered inmates. He thus "helped the Nazi regime benefit economically, and supported the systematic killings". http://www.news.com.au/world/breakin...b_uid=99350214

09-16-14, 05:02 AM	#2
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 181,240 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	A hard one to call....I agree he was on the periphery of that awful place and carried out no atrocities but he did take part and aid in certain tasks allied to said atrocities. There are no statute of limitations for these crimes and simply stating "I was following orders" has never and will never be an acceptable defence. Also taking into account his age I shouldn't imagine the courts would be too harsh. __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!! GWX3.0 Download Page - Donation/instant access to GWX (Help SubSim)

09-16-14, 10:27 AM	#4
HunterICX Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2006 Location: Malaga, España Posts: 10,750 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	Or send to the horrors of the Eastern Front for that matter. Since he was open about it and spoke about the horrors he witnessed I doubt the guy was there on his free will back in the day. __________________

09-16-14, 11:17 AM	#6
Wolferz Navy Seal Join Date: May 2007 Location: On a mighty quest for the Stick of Truth Posts: 5,963 Downloads: 52 Uploads: 0	I would think that just carrying the memories of that place and time would be punishment enough. Charging him with a count of murder for each and every soul taken by his peers is way over the top. I doubt if he was a supporter of the Nazi regime. Just another unfortunate German citizen who was forced into the military at gunpoint. Now if he joined of his own free will, then he shouldn't be charged with anything more than aiding and abetting. Not 300 million counts of murder. The architects of the holocaust were tried and hung long ago. It's time to leave it all in the past. __________________ Tomorrow never comes

09-16-14, 02:14 PM	#12
Wolferz Navy Seal Join Date: May 2007 Location: On a mighty quest for the Stick of Truth Posts: 5,963 Downloads: 52 Uploads: 0	To err is human and justice is blind... Leveling these charges on this guy seems excessive. Especially when you consider that every German citizen at that time knew what was going on and did little or nothing to curb it. If we all wished to be anal about it, the general population of 1940's Germany could be named as accessories to murder. Each and every one of them. Have they all paid penance? I think they have. __________________ Tomorrow never comes

09-16-14, 09:33 AM	#3
Eichhörnchen Starte das Auto Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: The Fens Posts: 15,752 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	If you've ever been in a line of military types, expected to take your turn and do something you REALLY didn't want to do, and most of the others probably didn't either (and here I'm only talking about crossing a raging torrent weighed down by a ton of kit, on a little rope which is getting very slack) you'll know how impossible it is to say "I can't do it". I don't know how guilty this old geezer was, but I think we should cut some slack for some of those guys who knew if they said "no" they'd be the next ones with a bullet-hole in their skull.

09-16-14, 10:30 AM	#5
Betonov Navy Seal Join Date: May 2009 Location: Slovenia Posts: 8,647 Downloads: 26 Uploads: 0	I don't know, it all seems like a waste of time and money by now. Let him go. Grimm reaper or mosad will take care of him soon enough.

09-16-14, 12:02 PM	#7
Eichhörnchen Starte das Auto Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: The Fens Posts: 15,752 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	I agree with all of that.

09-16-14, 01:26 PM	#10
Eichhörnchen Starte das Auto Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: The Fens Posts: 15,752 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Plenty of "low grade" personnel levied from captured territories and often not even European, were dragooned into the SS and given jobs like this. They were not deemed useful as fighting troops by the Nazis so were used for other, often particularly unpleasant, tasks. If they were all card-carrying members of the Party then it's likely this just came with the uniform...

09-16-14, 02:01 PM	#11
Eichhörnchen Starte das Auto Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: The Fens Posts: 15,752 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Fair comment, I didn't know that

09-16-14, 02:35 PM	#13
Aktungbby Gefallen Engel U-666 Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: On a tilted, overheated, overpopulated spinning mudball on Collision course with Andromeda Galaxy Posts: 27,865 Downloads: 22 Uploads: 0	HE's 93 years old..."Unlike most of the others, Groening has openly talked about his time as a guard and says while he witnessed horrific atrocities, he didn't commit any crimes himself." Sounds like a well considered retirement plan to me-ie: "let the state pay for his geriatric costs in a minimum-security institution"?? I doubt his military pen$ion is worth mentioning __________________ "Only two things are infinite; The Universe and human squirrelyness; and I'm not too sure about the Universe"