US Politics Thread 2016-2020

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

Or the humanitarian intervention could fail, with US getting mired in another endless war for decades.
You can always look at this situation from different angles.


Regular show of flag event (we would have sent ships if those were availiable), overblown by the US.

And who would be the sponsor of this revolution and endless war?

[Skybird]

Russian money is heavily engaged in Venezuela, lots of credits running, much money both from the state and from private financiers close to the Kremlin. That is a very clear and material interest Russia has in the Manduro regime, which is against the US and thus against the chance for the US meddling with the payback of these credits and financial interests. The same is true for China, though on not such a significant scale as the Russian case.



Of course both like to have opened a sore wound in the flank of the American backyard again. Maybe you can'T have missiles on Cuba - but having a Manduro in Venezuela nevertheless is worth an attempt to poke the Americans in the eye.

[FullMetalADCAP]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Russian money is heavily engaged in Venezuela, lots of credits running, much money both from the state and from private financiers close to the Kremlin. That is a very clear and material interest Russia has in the Manduro regime, which is against the US and thus against the chance for the US meddling with the payback of these credits and financial interests. The same is true for China, though on not such a significant scale as the Russian case.



Of course both like to have opened a sore wound in the flank of the American backyard again. Maybe you can'T have missiles on Cuba - but having a Manduro in Venezuela nevertheless is worth an attempt to poke the Americans in the eye.

We'll just make "The Hunt for Red October 2" and "RockyIV 2" to poke the Russians in the eye right back.

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

Someone tell me, why has it taken Trump 2 years (and after the Dems won back the House) for him to start the wall?

Good question. My take on it?

Because the Republican congress did not want the wall. More accurately, the Republicans do not want to be held responsible for the massive costs (acquisition and O&M of the wall)

By waiting until the Democrats got the house (there was not much doubt in that), this open up two political outcomes

1. If the Democratic House approves the funding and the expenses of the wall become excessive, the GOP can point their fingers at the Democrats and claim "well you funded it! It's on you!"

2. If the House does not approve the funding, then the GOP can point their fingers at the democrats and claim "see, they don't care about security or safety". Democrats being weak on security is a traditional campaigning strategy by the GOP.

Neither of these would work if the GOP remained in control of both houses. In the event that the democrats did not gain a majority in the house, this wall funding thing would not have been pushed.

That's why it was not a crisis when the GOP had both houses but is now suddenly a crisis when the opposing party has control and responsibility.

This is also why Trump is being pressured not to use the Emergency rational as it removes the accountability (and finger pointing) from the Democrats and moves it back to Trump and by association the GOP.

[eddie]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Russian money is heavily engaged in Venezuela, lots of credits running, much money both from the state and from private financiers close to the Kremlin. That is a very clear and material interest Russia has in the Manduro regime, which is against the US and thus against the chance for the US meddling with the payback of these credits and financial interests. The same is true for China, though on not such a significant scale as the Russian case.



Of course both like to have opened a sore wound in the flank of the American backyard again. Maybe you can'T have missiles on Cuba - but having a Manduro in Venezuela nevertheless is worth an attempt to poke the Americans in the eye.

Have to remember Sky, Iran has warned the US to stay out of this too! I mean with Iran's global reach with their navy and air force, we should be quite concerned with them,LOL

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by Platapus

Good question. My take on it?

Because the Republican congress did not want the wall. More accurately, the Republicans do not want to be held responsible for the massive costs (acquisition and O&M of the wall)

By waiting until the Democrats got the house (there was not much doubt in that), this open up two political outcomes

1. If the Democratic House approves the funding and the expenses of the wall become excessive, the GOP can point their fingers at the Democrats and claim "well you funded it! It's on you!"

2. If the House does not approve the funding, then the GOP can point their fingers at the democrats and claim "see, they don't care about security or safety". Democrats being weak on security is a traditional campaigning strategy by the GOP.

Neither of these would work if the GOP remained in control of both houses. In the event that the democrats did not gain a majority in the house, this wall funding thing would not have been pushed.

That's why it was not a crisis when the GOP had both houses but is now suddenly a crisis when the opposing party has control and responsibility.

This is also why Trump is being pressured not to use the Emergency rational as it removes the accountability (and finger pointing) from the Democrats and moves it back to Trump and by association the GOP.

Also, cost over runs developing the technology for A.I. and virtual wall border sensors were one of the main reasons funding was cut in the first place.

[mapuc]

My reply to August comment to my latest post.

This show how little knowledge I have about American politics and their laws they must obey or follow.

I remember our journalist mentioned Trump putting a ban on 13 countries and no one from these countries were allowed to enter USA.

But these journalist(mostly Danish), did not mentioned National Emergency. Well I have tried to remember if they had.

I thought USA was somehow the same as Sweden and Denmark, and perhaps Germany.
National Emergency is only activated in case of huge terror attack or severe weather.

Markus

[em2nought]

Originally Posted by Platapus

Good question. My take on it?

Because the Republican congress did not want the wall. More accurately, the Republicans do not want to be held responsible for the massive costs (acquisition and O&M of the wall)

I think there's another component being the "forces" that make those republican congressional puppets "dance" don't want any possible interruption in the cheap labor pool. The entire congress is a swamp.

[FullMetalADCAP]

Originally Posted by Platapus

Good question. My take on it?

Because the Republican congress did not want the wall. More accurately, the Republicans do not want to be held responsible for the massive costs (acquisition and O&M of the wall)

By waiting until the Democrats got the house (there was not much doubt in that), this open up two political outcomes

1. If the Democratic House approves the funding and the expenses of the wall become excessive, the GOP can point their fingers at the Democrats and claim "well you funded it! It's on you!"

2. If the House does not approve the funding, then the GOP can point their fingers at the democrats and claim "see, they don't care about security or safety". Democrats being weak on security is a traditional campaigning strategy by the GOP.

Neither of these would work if the GOP remained in control of both houses. In the event that the democrats did not gain a majority in the house, this wall funding thing would not have been pushed.

That's why it was not a crisis when the GOP had both houses but is now suddenly a crisis when the opposing party has control and responsibility.

This is also why Trump is being pressured not to use the Emergency rational as it removes the accountability (and finger pointing) from the Democrats and moves it back to Trump and by association the GOP.

OR - maybe Trump just really wants to build the wall to protect this nation? Nah, can't be that simple. Has to be some deep, dark, evil conspiracy of the Republicans to make the Dems look bad - as if the Dems aren't doing a good job of that themselves.

This should be such a simple and mutual agreement between the parties but each is just so wary of the other on everything that nothing gets done. It's pathetic. We need term limits on all politicians.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Platapus

Good question. My take on it?

Because the Republican congress did not want the wall. More accurately, the Republicans do not want to be held responsible for the massive costs (acquisition and O&M of the wall)

By waiting until the Democrats got the house (there was not much doubt in that), this open up two political outcomes

1. If the Democratic House approves the funding and the expenses of the wall become excessive, the GOP can point their fingers at the Democrats and claim "well you funded it! It's on you!"

2. If the House does not approve the funding, then the GOP can point their fingers at the democrats and claim "see, they don't care about security or safety". Democrats being weak on security is a traditional campaigning strategy by the GOP.

Neither of these would work if the GOP remained in control of both houses. In the event that the democrats did not gain a majority in the house, this wall funding thing would not have been pushed.

That's why it was not a crisis when the GOP had both houses but is now suddenly a crisis when the opposing party has control and responsibility.

This is also why Trump is being pressured not to use the Emergency rational as it removes the accountability (and finger pointing) from the Democrats and moves it back to Trump and by association the GOP.

You know, I think you're right.

And Trump doesn't really want the wall, either. He's just saying what sovereignty-minded Americans want to hear.

[vienna]

When you get down to the real, known, facts about the wall, they are very few: we know Trump wants to build a wall, we know he is trying to convince the US that Mexico will somehow pay for it, and we know he wants the US taxpayers to front him the money to start building it...


What we don't know:

1. The exact nature of the 'wall'; there are 8 known prototypes, none of which have been said to be the final choice for the 'wall'
2. The exact cost of the wall or even an estimate of the final costs; aside from a brief, hurriedly drafted summation of possible starting costs that was hastily withdrawn almost immediately after its issue and a less than encouraging, unflattering (and heavily redacted) DHS report on the wall, there hasn't been any real accounting of the costs, now or in the future for the 'wall';
3. The exact engineering needed to overcome serious issues regarding terrain, seismic, and environmental issues (weathering, etc.);
4. The way issues regarding private property ownership and the project's impact on the property rights of individuals/entities along the wall route; added to this should be property issues regarding ownership of land by local and/or state governments and their agencies;
5. The nature and costs of providing maintenance and security for the 'wall', once finished;

...and those are just the few I could think of in the moment; I am sure there are more issues out there...

Put it this way: Imagine you are the loan officer for a bank and some guy, let's call him Ronald Scrump, came in to your office seeking a construction loan:

You: Well, Mr. Scrump, what can we do for you today?

Scrump: I want to get a loan for a construction project that must be done at once!

You: I see. Do you have a project plan available we can both discus?

Scrump: All I have is the idea and it is a really, really good idea, the best ever and it will be HUGE!

You: Um, er, here at the bank we really need to have some sort of plan worked out to review before we decide...

Scrump: Look, that's the old way of doing things! This is a better way! Trust me!

You (Trying no to excite the excitable man): Well, um, let's go over some of the basics, then. Do you have a budget?

Scrump: Well, I have an idea of the starting costs...

You: Ah! And can you provide backing for the figures?

Scrump: Well, I've just been sort of spitballing figures, I can't really pin down the actual costs.

You: I see. So you don't have an actual budget. Do you have construction plans and material estimates available for review?

Scrump: Well, I haven't really decided on a design, but I do have a half dozen or so under consideration.

You: So, no budget, no project plans. Do you at least have the rights to the property for the project?

Scrump: Well, I know the general location but there may be a problem with local governments who own part of the area, but, hey, that's just details, right?

You: I see. Well, Mr Scrump, I'll see about presenting this to the loan committee and we'll get back to you as soon as possible.

Scrump: I look for ward to you cutting me a check and, believe me, my project will be the biggest, greatest project ever! It will be HUGE!!

(Scrump leaves your office)

You (on the intercom to the receptionist): Nancy, will you inform security that Scrump fellow is not to be allowed int this building ever again. Thank You.


Given how, basically, this is how Trump is approaching the whole 'wall' , the fact that US banks will no longer do business with him and the fact Trump has had four bankruptcies, including one of a casino, which in other hands would be a license to 'print money', is now very understandable. If the border project had been properly planned, designed, and vetted it might have been passed by Congress and without the unnecessary hoopla and juvenile dramatics of the Trump Tantrum. Its been done twice before, in 2006 and 2013, but both efforts at a full and concise border and immigration reform were thwarted by some of the same Trump minions who are trying to lay blame solely on the DEMs:

Did Senate pass immigration bills in 2006, 2013 and House failed to vote on them? -

https://www.politifact.com/punditfac...bills-2006-20/


By the way, the 'impregnable' Trump wall as proposed most recently has been proven to be 'pregnable', even by a tool as simple as a common hardware store circular saw:

Trump’s New Steel Border Wall Won’t Be Any Better Than Concrete -

https://www.engineering.com/BIM/Arti...-Concrete.aspx


Regarding the shutdown, funding problems used to be a big political issue here in California, but the constant bickering and inaction came to an end when the CA voters placed on the the ballot and voted in an initiative that changed the way voting by the State's Houses on budgets was conducted and allowed for the docking of the State Legislators' and Senators' if they did not pass a budget on time; in the 30 years prior to the 2010 passage of the initiative, the Legislature had only met the deadline 5 times; since the passage of the law, and an actual docking of the lawmakers pay, the annual budgets have all been passed either on or before the deadline date(s). Perhaps this is another 'California idea' that might work for the Federal levels...

‘No Budget, No Pay’ Works Once Again in California -

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/chris...b_5501540.html


Some in other parts of the nation may disparage CA, but we seem to be doing just fine with our "whacky" ideas...









<O>

[FullMetalADCAP]

Originally Posted by vienna

When you get down to the real, known, facts about the wall, they are very few: we know Trump wants to build a wall, we know he is trying to convince the US that Mexico will somehow pay for it, and we know he wants the US taxpayers to front him the money to start building it...


What we don't know:

1. The exact nature of the 'wall'; there are 8 known prototypes, none of which have been said to be the final choice for the 'wall'
2. The exact cost of the wall or even an estimate of the final costs; aside from a brief, hurriedly drafted summation of possible starting costs that was hastily withdrawn almost immediately after its issue and a less than encouraging, unflattering (and heavily redacted) DHS report on the wall, there hasn't been any real accounting of the costs, now or in the future for the 'wall';
3. The exact engineering needed to overcome serious issues regarding terrain, seismic, and environmental issues (weathering, etc.);
4. The way issues regarding private property ownership and the project's impact on the property rights of individuals/entities along the wall route; added to this should be property issues regarding ownership of land by local and/or state governments and their agencies;
5. The nature and costs of providing maintenance and security for the 'wall', once finished;

...and those are just the few I could think of in the moment; I am sure there are more issues out there...

Put it this way: Imagine you are the loan officer for a bank and some guy, let's call him Ronald Scrump, came in to your office seeking a construction loan:

You: Well, Mr. Scrump, what can we do for you today?

Scrump: I want to get a loan for a construction project that must be done at once!

You: I see. Do you have a project plan available we can both discus?

Scrump: All I have is the idea and it is a really, really good idea, the best ever and it will be HUGE!

You: Um, er, here at the bank we really need to have some sort of plan worked out to review before we decide...

Scrump: Look, that's the old way of doing things! This is a better way! Trust me!

You (Trying no to excite the excitable man): Well, um, let's go over some of the basics, then. Do you have a budget?

Scrump: Well, I have an idea of the starting costs...

You: Ah! And can you provide backing for the figures?

Scrump: Well, I've just been sort of spitballing figures, I can't really pin down the actual costs.

You: I see. So you don't have an actual budget. Do you have construction plans and material estimates available for review?

Scrump: Well, I haven't really decided on a design, but I do have a half dozen or so under consideration.

You: So, no budget, no project plans. Do you at least have the rights to the property for the project?

Scrump: Well, I know the general location but there may be a problem with local governments who own part of the area, but, hey, that's just details, right?

You: I see. Well, Mr Scrump, I'll see about presenting this to the loan committee and we'll get back to you as soon as possible.

Scrump: I look for ward to you cutting me a check and, believe me, my project will be the biggest, greatest project ever! It will be HUGE!!

(Scrump leaves your office)

You (on the intercom to the receptionist): Nancy, will you inform security that Scrump fellow is not to be allowed int this building ever again. Thank You.


Given how, basically, this is how Trump is approaching the whole 'wall' , the fact that US banks will no longer do business with him and the fact Trump has had four bankruptcies, including one of a casino, which in other hands would be a license to 'print money', is now very understandable. If the border project had been properly planned, designed, and vetted it might have been passed by Congress and without the unnecessary hoopla and juvenile dramatics of the Trump Tantrum. Its been done twice before, in 2006 and 2013, but both efforts at a full and concise border and immigration reform were thwarted by some of the same Trump minions who are trying to lay blame solely on the DEMs:

Did Senate pass immigration bills in 2006, 2013 and House failed to vote on them? -

https://www.politifact.com/punditfac...bills-2006-20/


By the way, the 'impregnable' Trump wall as proposed most recently has been proven to be 'pregnable', even by a tool as simple as a common hardware store circular saw:

Trump’s New Steel Border Wall Won’t Be Any Better Than Concrete -

https://www.engineering.com/BIM/Arti...-Concrete.aspx


Regarding the shutdown, funding problems used to be a big political issue here in California, but the constant bickering and inaction came to an end when the CA voters placed on the the ballot and voted in an initiative that changed the way voting by the State's Houses on budgets was conducted and allowed for the docking of the State Legislators' and Senators' if they did not pass a budget on time; in the 30 years prior to the 2010 passage of the initiative, the Legislature had only met the deadline 5 times; since the passage of the law, and an actual docking of the lawmakers pay, the annual budgets have all been passed either on or before the deadline date(s). Perhaps this is another 'California idea' that might work for the Federal levels...

‘No Budget, No Pay’ Works Once Again in California -

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/chris...b_5501540.html


Some in other parts of the nation may disparage CA, but we seem to be doing just fine with our "whacky" ideas...









<O>

How many buildings and resorts have you built vienna?... None? Yeah, that's what I thought.

I trust the President knows a bit about the process and what is needed to make a quality wall.

And if you don't trust the President to do a good job on it, you can ask Nancy Pelosi how and why she put a wall up all around her home and how it's done.

I don't care if it's dual fences with razor wire coils in the middle and on both sides with zone alarms. That's all we had at FCI Talladega where I worked in corrections and no inmate got through that. Had one jump onto the side one night when I was on perimeter duty. It set off the zone alarm and I was there in 20 seconds with my shotgun out. I racked that slide back and he wet the front of his khaki pants and crapped himself. Probably the scariest sound in the world is "cha cha" from a 12-gauge being racked.

He was stuck because he couldn't get over the razor wire above him. He would have had to jump 25 feet across to the top of the other fence (also covered in razor wire, without falling into all the coils in between down below. I knew he wasn't going no where. I waited for the compound officer to come and get him down and take him to the Special Housing Unit (SHU). The inmate cut his ankle on some razor wire at the bottom trying to get down and it cut him to the bone. We even dropped a roast in that stuff one time and it came out like spaghetti at the bottom.

If Trump builds this thing with zone alarms on it, I highly doubt any immigrant with a circular saw is going to penetrate through it before a helo or jeep is there with machine guns aimed at him within a minute or two. From my understanding, there's going to be cameras, razor wire, and zone alarms all over the steel wall. I imagine there will be round-the-clock patrolling rovers that drive the length of a section of the wall back and forth and probably helo crews spread out over so many miles that are on standbye to investigate zone alarms if there's not a jeep patrol nearby. And there's probably going to be tons of people hired to monitor a certain amount of security cameras along the wall, all equipped with high range vision and night vision capabilities.

Will the wall stop ALL violators? Nothing is ever 100% but anything is better than nothing and it WILL be a huge help in curbing back the amount of illegals breaking into our country. And lets say one breaks through somehow. It will not have been easy for him. So if he's picked up in the U.S. and deported, he'll know he'll have to go through all that hell again and he might not be so lucky the second time. I think it will encourage more to go through the process of legal entry into our country. And that's all we care about. It's not a racism thing like so many on the left try to accuse Trump of being. All he wants is for people to go through the legal process of gaining entry to our country and obeying the law.

[Reece]

Then there is tunneling!!

[Buddahaid]

So Pelosi has a wall? Well I have four walls and I even put a roof on them and locks on the doors solely to keep out all the Mexicans that flood over the border.

That is such a stupid argument.

[vienna]

Originally Posted by FullMetalADCAP

How many buildings and resorts have you built vienna?... None? Yeah, that's what I thought.

I trust the President knows a bit about the process and what is needed to make a quality wall.

And if you don't trust the President to do a good job on it, you can ask Nancy Pelosi how and why she put a wall up all around her home and how it's done.

Hmm, I guess we should all follow the great example of Trump and go bankrupt four times over, totally screw-up a cash cow like a casino, have banks refuse to even do business with us, be sued by thousands of contractors and vendors for non-payment of debts, take credit for books we didn't even write (when asked about Trump's literary efforts, his publisher said Trump 'never even wrote a post card for us'), etc., etc,..

Trump as a 'role model' for success, much less for integrity and honesty is a really long stretch...

...almost Pinocchio-like...

The man is an idiot who was born into wealth and depended on his father to bail him out of his failures, and, by most metrics, far more fo a failure than a rousing success; I'm probably in better final financial shape than he is and I'm hurting; he is what the call in Texas "All hat and no cattle". The guy is in hock up to and beyond his eyeballs, and is actively trying to turn his stay in the White House into a personal profit making venture; he's not even waiting til he's out of office to try and cash in. The level of sliminess and corruption of Trump is beyond even the worst of past Presidents. But the prospect for his house made of the tissues of lies to come down and take him with it are very, very high...

As his minions are individually indicted and or convicted, the trail leads ever closer to his door, and, as his gross mismanagement and disregard for common ethics and law becomes more and more apparent, he'll only have whatever sad, little minions chose to ride down the sinking hulk of his sad, pathetic "presidency" and whatever Trumpette lemmings who will still follow him. The rest of us will say good riddance and go on with normal lives...




BTW, have you heard of all the failed Trump projects in his past? Here are just a few:

Collapse Of The Deal: Trump Branded Projects That Fell Apart -

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jennife.../#79cec7d5a822


...and I wasn't aware Nancy Pelosi has a wall around her home, but if she does, it shows she at least knows how to get one built and finished; maybe Trump should hire her as a project manager...










<O>