Senate Blocks Buffett Rule 30% Tax Floor on Top Earners.

[CaptainHaplo]

Originally Posted by soopaman2

So social security is a giveaway, and caring for our elderly are entitlements?

Yes and Yes

We have been paying into SS our whole lives. It is not an entitlement.

Correct, then wrong. The fact you have been paying into it verifies it is an entitlement - it is something you are ENTITLED to - aka - something you are owed by the government. Not all entitlements are "government charity".

I like you haplo, but you have a "screw the poor for being poor" vibe.

Really? Because I even stated that just dealing with entitlements is not an answer. This was a cold hard look at facts, not a suggestion for a fix. We need a lot of changes - yes - some in entitlements - but a lot of others as well. Please don't take a hypothetical scenario as some proposal to screw the poor.

Not all poor are takers, some feel shame for having to do it.

I know. I have been there myself. I was not denigrating anyone.

On a side note, go ahead and kill SS, I want every penny back I put into it, since I started working at age 14, with inflationary interest. So does everyone else. (or is it in some Iraqi or pakistani pocket already?)

Personally - I think SS should be an "opt in" system for many - especially the younger generation. People above 50 should get their standard SS - between 35-50 should get the choice to opt in or get their money back (even withouot interest that would be substantial) and below 35 they should be pure opt in, no refund.

Yes - a little "sacrifice" - but the two younger groups both sacrifice some - and its not a perfect solution - could be tweaked - but you get the general idea.

The issue here is that the left is pushing "fairness" idea without ever defining what fairness really is. The rich pay the lions share - how much more is "fair". The amounts keep changing. So we hear for days and days about hte "buffet" rule - wasting days of time on something that pays for 11 hours of government spending.... see the inefficiency? Its a political ploy, not a serious attempt at solving the nation's fiscal problems.

I am not against getting rid of loopholes. I am not against redoing the tax code. I am against people making a political herring out of something while ignoring the problems of this country. THAT is what the buffet rule is about - distracting the populace and trying to score political points on "fairness" instead of dealing with real issues.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

Correct, then wrong. The fact you have been paying into it verifies it is an entitlement - it is something you are ENTITLED to - aka - something you are owed by the government. Not all entitlements are "government charity".

You are incorrect on the definition of "entitlement spending." The programs are entitled to the spending, not necessarily the end recipients of the program. You've fallen into the propaganda trap, either willfully or not, of using loaded words like entitlement. Entitlement spending, in government terms, is spending that's automatic unless Congress deems otherwise. Every year, Social Security isn't reauthorized, so it's an entitlement expenditure.

http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/...s_mandato.html

Using the term "entitlement spending" the way you are is using rhetorical tricks to push your side's agenda, either willfully or not.

[CaptainHaplo]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

You are incorrect on the definition of "entitlement spending." The programs are entitled to the spending, not necessarily the end recipients of the program. [

Tell that the to the end recipients of the programs. The programs exist to spend money to the benefit of the recipients. If SS had money, but refused to send it to the recipients, and instead blew it on hookers and parties in Vegas (ala the GSA), do you really think the citizenry would stand by? *Ok granted - due to accounting tactics that kinda happens - but its hidden*

Using the term "entitlement spending" the way you are is using rhetorical tricks to push your side's agenda.

Now see - your claiming I have a "side". I called out BOTH sides for their lack of restraint and fiscal irresponsibility. However, the topic is one that is being pushed by YOUR side - all I have done is point out that its a red herring. I distinctly made it clear I was not for killing "entitlement" spending - I think we should cut some military spending too, for example. This isn't partisan other than YOUR side is pushing something for the sole reason that they are unwilling to deal with the real problems.

Why is it that when someone just points out facts that you can't dispute - they are immediately on some "side"? The Democrats had Congress and the Presidency for 2 years, they have had half of Congress and the Presidency for a further 1.5 - how is calling them out for their utter refusal to deal with the real problems we face automatically "partisan"?

"Team R" did the same thing - and the American people held them accountable in 2008. Talking about it then wasn't partisan - but because your side is now the one catching heat, it is? Cmon.....

The buffet rule is a farce - its totally like "SQUIRREL!" from the movie up - hey everyone - look over here and don't think about the important stuff. You know it as well as I do - in fact - you have not even denied it. So lets stop the partisan attack/defend crap and agree that BOTH sides need to stop with trying to score political points and instead focus on digging the country out of the whole they have all put us in.... Can we do that?

[mookiemookie]

Just because you refuse to accept the definition of a term and prefer your own, doesn't mean that you've changed the definition of the term.

And the term "entitlement spending" is a loaded one, used mostly by those espousing the desire to cut spending on people like the "entitled," the "lazy" and the "welfare queens."

If it walks like a duck, and uses terms like "entitlement spending" like a duck...

You know it as well as I do - in fact - you have not even denied it.

Are you seriously going to use that old Glenn Beck tactic? You know Glenn Beck raped and murdered a young girl in 1990, don't you? Do you know why we know this? He never denied doing it!

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

In 2007 the richest 1% of the American population owned 34.6% of their wealth, and the next 19% owned 50.5%. Thus, the top 20% of Americans owned 85% of their wealth and the bottom 80% of the population owned 15%.

Fixed for you. Since when does owning something become the country's ? I thought that was the whole point of owning.

Anyway, I don't see how taxing the 1% more or less is going to have much impact on me. I don't receive government aid. Maybe we'll get bigger libraries...

If we are going to make the tax system really fair, it should be a straight percentage across the board for all income, no deducations, no exceptions. Everybody contributes their 20%.

[CaptainHaplo]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Just because you refuse to accept the definition of a term and prefer your own, doesn't mean that you've changed the definition of the term.

And the term "entitlement spending" is a loaded one, used mostly by those espousing the desire to cut spending on people like the "entitled," the "lazy" and the "welfare queens."

If it walks like a duck, and uses terms like "entitlement spending" like a duck...



Are you seriously going to use that old Glenn Beck tactic? You know Glenn Beck raped and murdered a young girl in 1990, don't you? Do you know why we know this? He never denied doing it!

More diversionary tactics....

So instead of dealing with the fact that our government spends 1/3 more than it takes in (on many things that need cutting), despite the fact that I am for cuts in lots of areas and not just "entitlements", as well as the reality that you could "fair" the rich away - just take every dime and thing they own and it still wouldn't solve the problem - much less this 11 hr pay "fairness" idea - you'd rather continue to obfuscate and ignore the real problems facing this nation.

This is why we are in the shape we are in - because some people - and you in this case mookie - are more about the partisan crap than you are about solutions that must occur if we are to fix the problems.

Why not answer the questions outright as they have been asked of you already? With the rich already paying the lion's share of taxes - how much is enough? August or Aramike asked that - you ignored it. I asked why are we spending days and days on something that pays for 11 hours of government when we are spending 1/3 more than we make as a country - you won't touch that one either.

When someone points out a position or facts you don't like - its all because they have a "side". If someone says "lets pretend" to remove all the entitlements for the sake of proving a point regarding how much we overspend - that immediately makes them be using rhetorical tools to push an agenda.... Cmon - your better than this.

I get your left and your not happy that your side is catching flak. But your not responsible for that - and you can't seriously argue that those in control of your chosen party are acting responsibly while governing. I mean - no budget from the senate in 3 years? A presidential budget he tells the party to vote against? You sure do like to make fun of the people who swallow "truth" from Glen Beck, but your not using your own brain to break ranks with those who are doing absolutely nothing useful in governing this nation. Your throwing out the fairness talking points and getting defensive instead of just looking at the facts and (likely) coming to the conclusion that most people in this nation are moving to - that those in government (regardless of "side") are more of the problem than the solution.

Seriously, stop defending the indefensible, and lets start talking solutions. And sorry, an tax increase that pays for 11 hrs of government (with untold economic consequences to boot) isn't any kind of a solution.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Fixed for you. Since when does owning something become the country's ? I thought that was the whole point of owning.

There is something systemically wrong when 93% of the wealth created goes to 1% of the population. They're not doing 93% of the work, they're not contributing 93% of the improvements in standards of living, they're not 93% smarter than everyone else. I dare say they didn't even create 93% of that wealth. It's an indictment of a system that's rigged against those without means, and is set up to prevent upward mobility. America is the land of opportunity? Not so much. Social mobility is greater in Europe now than it is in America.

Anyway, I don't see how taxing the 1% more or less is going to have much impact on me. I don't receive government aid. Maybe we'll get bigger libraries...

There's a lot of people with kids in school and people who use public infrastructure that will benefit from governments who can adequately provide these things.

If we are going to make the tax system really fair, it should be a straight percentage across the board for all income, no deducations, no exceptions. Everybody contributes their 20%.

Taking 20% of the income of the guy who makes $10,000 a year is a lot different than taking 20% of the income of the guy who makes $10,000,000.

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

So instead of dealing with the fact that our government spends 1/3 more than it takes in (on many things that need cutting), despite the fact that I am for cuts in lots of areas and not just "entitlements", as well as the reality that you could "fair" the rich away - just take every dime and thing they own and it still wouldn't solve the problem - much less this 11 hr pay "fairness" idea - you'd rather continue to obfuscate and ignore the real problems facing this nation.

Why does the government spend more than it takes in? Could it be that money coming in the door has declined? Since we're getting caught up in "your side, my side" why is it that "your side" refuses to see both sides of the equation and thinks that the answer to everything is cut, cut, cut. Cut spending on women and children, cut taxes on the rich who are paying lower rates of taxes than they have in decades.

This is why we are in the shape we are in - because some people - and you in this case mookie - are more about the partisan crap than you are about solutions that must occur if we are to fix the problems.

Oh please. You're not the model of bipartisanship fairness that you'd love to make yourself out to be.

Why not answer the questions outright as they have been asked of you already? With the rich already paying the lion's share of taxes - how much is enough? August or Aramike asked that - you ignored it. I asked why are we spending days and days on something that pays for 11 hours of government when we are spending 1/3 more than we make as a country - you won't touch that one either.

Do I have to address every single thing that everyone in every thread ever posts? I don't think so.

When someone points out a position or facts you don't like - its all because they have a "side". If someone says "lets pretend" to remove all the entitlements for the sake of proving a point regarding how much we overspend - that immediately makes them be using rhetorical tools to push an agenda.... Cmon - your better than this.

No, they have a side when they parrot the ideas and talking points that their chosen "side" puts out, without regard to truth, fact, or depth of analysis.

I get your left and your not happy that your side is catching flak. But your not responsible for that - and you can't seriously argue that those in control of your chosen party are acting responsibly while governing.

My chosen party, he says. That's rich.

I mean - no budget from the senate in 3 years? A presidential budget he tells the party to vote against? You sure do like to make fun of the people who swallow "truth" from Glen Beck, but your not using your own brain to break ranks with those who are doing absolutely nothing useful in governing this nation.

Disagreeing with the Democratic Party's actions doesn't make you a Republican or amenable to their ideas. If you could think of things from a standpoint that isn't so caught up in duality, you may understand my position a bit more.

Your throwing out the fairness talking points and getting defensive instead of just looking at the facts

Your facts aren't facts and you're so turned around to the point that you're misunderstanding and misusing terminology.

Seriously, stop defending the indefensible, and lets start talking solutions. And sorry, an tax increase that pays for 11 hrs of government (with untold economic consequences to boot) isn't any kind of a solution.

And a tax cut is the solution. Screwing over the ever increasing ranks of the poor (and they're only poor because they're lazy, doncha know) is the solution. Quit bowing at the altar of Grover Norquist.

And you want to lay the budget passing problem at my feet? Republicans throw in some of the most egregious garbage into the budget, and then complain when the other side balks and tries to pin it on them. It doesn't work that way, bubba.

Do a bit of light reading of last year's budget, and you may come up with some startling revelations.

"The Department of Defense is funded at $513 billion in the CR [Continuing Resolution] ***8211; approximately $5 billion above last year ***8211; providing the necessary resources for the safety of our troops and the success of our nation***8217;s military actions. The bill also includes an additional $157.8 billion for overseas contingency operations (emergency funding) to advance our missions abroad."

SUCK ON THAT, POOR PEOPLE. Spend, spend, spend, more, more, more and then complain about poor people getting healthcare. Oh yeah, if this doesn't pass it's not because Dem's found it distasteful, it's because they hate America.

"The funding level for the State Department and Foreign Operations in the CR is a total of $48.3 billion ***8211; a $504 million reduction from last year***8217;s level and an $8.4 billion reduction from the President***8217;s fiscal year 2011 request."

"Got-dang right! MORE MONEY FOR GUNS, LESS FOR DIPLOMACY! YEEEEEEAAAAH! Ain't that America?"

Oh and the riders are great.

The "Screw You Michelle Obama" rider:

That none of the funds made available by this division or any other Act shall be used to pay the salaries and expenses of personnel to carry out section 19 of the Richard B. Russell National School Lunch Act."

You know, the one that would help provide fresh fruit and vegetables to school kids. Heck no, we spend too much. Screw the kids and screw the vegetables. More guns, please.

The "Make sure we cover up any evidence that anything Obama passed is doing any good for infrastructure, so we can keep using the 'omg no shovel ready projects!' line"

Prohibits Recovery Act funds for signage.

After reading that list of riders, you're going to seriously criticize the Dems for not passing that? That's not a document outlining principles of responsible and even handed bipartisanship and compromise, that's what Rush uses instead of Viagra.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

There is something systemically wrong when 93% of the wealth created goes to 1% of the population. They're not doing 93% of the work, they're not contributing 93% of the improvements in standards of living, they're not 93% smarter than everyone else. I dare say they didn't even create 93% of that wealth. It's an indictment of a system that's rigged against those without means, and is set up to prevent upward mobility. America is the land of opportunity? Not so much. Social mobility is greater in Europe now than it is in America.

That is the "free market" or Capitalist system at work, far from perfect, creates systemic inequality, but to paraphrase Winston Churchill: "It is the worst economic system, but better than all the alternatives" .

Trying to increase tax rates on the rich up past a certain point is useless since it is too easy to shift income and taxes to offshore tax havens/low tax jurisdictions so you actually wind up losing tax revenues.

Raising taxes on capital gains (which is what the Buffett rule in fact proposes) also does not make sense (past a certain point) since it would cause capital to again flee to no/low tax jurisdictions. The federal long term capital gains tax rate in the U.S.A. which has hovered between 15-20% is actually within international norms, in Canada it is between 19-25% depending on the province.

A flat tax of 20%, which many people see as an ideal, is actually no simpler than the current system (sorry Neal), since you still have to define what is the "income" subject to the tax. For example what do you do about business expenses, business losses, charitable donations, etc. Sharp tax lawyers/accountants would quickly drive this down to a much lower effective rate.

Having said all that, there would be room to increase overall tax rates by a few points which can be done by either raising rates or closing loopholes. You guys will have to do something eventually about your deficit.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

If we are going to make the tax system really fair, it should be a straight percentage across the board for all income, no deducations, no exceptions. Everybody contributes their 20%.

20% for somebody having less than 1000 dollars per month, and a family, is much.

20% for a multi-millionaire is something he does not even feel. You cannot drive more than one Ferrari at a time, you cannot live in more than one villa at a time.

For the same reason I argue in favour of financial penalties for offences no longer being set as total numbers, but in percentages from the offenders income. You ride your car, and exceed the speed limit. You're an ordinary man with a usual income, and you have family - those 200 dollar (or whatever your fees are ) are just this: 200 dollars, and might hurt him. The millionaire driving a Ferrari and while sleeping earning 100,000 per month just from his stocks - for him 200 dollars mean nothing. The punishing value, the aversive stimulus or pain from the penalty, is not the same for both men. The one may cry in financial agony - the other is just laughing, and just jumps the traffic light after the cops let him go, just to show them how little he cares for their little papers leaflets.

However, there are limits to taxation, of course, there must be. Some British known name - forgot who it was, some film actor I think - said that once you need to give away more than 49% of your incomes to taxes, SS and such things, it is time to leave the country. I would agree with what direction he aims at. I see a limit somewhere in the low 40%-range for non-average high incomes. I simply feel like that if you work, the majoirty of your income should be yours, that'S why I see those 50% indeed as the adamant barrier.

The socialist candidate in France, Hollande, who seems to be able to defeat Sarkozy so far, wants a 75% tax on the wealthy. That is insane. (He also means plenty of finacial misery for Germany, over his ideas on how to run the Euro crisis.) Hollande already has ruined French economy once, under Mitterand. Obviously the French have forgotten that.

In Germany, real net loans for employees - by real buying power - have dropped over the past 20 years, while the overall total costs Germans had to pay to the state and social wellfare, have reached an all-time high last year. Never has Germany earned so much in taxes. And never has it made so many debts, I think.

The European social wellfare state model has failed. It has become unaffordable. Politicians try to hide that from the public - at the price of delaying action and thus increasing the damage. Ifd there is any action left that would help.

[Ducimus]

Zakaria: America needs a 2-page tax code

[yubba]

The lord and the church only ask for 10%, so what makes the government think it is mightier than the lord, thinking it needs more than 30%, if 10% is good enough for the lord it should be good enough for the government, the dept of energy spent 60 million dollars on their fleet of cars now they don't know how many they have, it's around 15,000, but who's counting it's not like it's their money, I get link later.

The lord and the church only ask for 10%, so what makes the government think it is mightier than the lord, thinking it needs more than 30%, if 10% is good enough for the lord it should be good enough for the government, the dept of energy spent 60 million dollars on their fleet of cars now they don't know how many they have, it's around 15,000, but who's counting it's not like it's their money, I get link later.

Forget the link get yourself a bible
The first 10% is only one portion of one of the taxes for the "Lord".

Besides which if you want to leave out the old scripture which you got completely wrong and go with the new covenant then just pay up in cash to the government what they ask 'cos that carpenter fella said it don't matter none.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Zakaria: America needs a 2-page tax code

on that, I found the part on a national sales tax a bit ironic. Canada adopted a european style value added tax in 1991 known as the "Goods and Services Tax" or GST that was supposed to lead to a simpler tax code and eliminate tax evasion...

...20 years later the Canadian GST Code is as large and complex as the Income Tax Act so we now have TWO huge tax codes to deal with and tax evasion is at an all time high....

There is no such thing as a "simple" solution when it comes to taxes.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Taking 20% of the income of the guy who makes $10,000 a year is a lot different than taking 20% of the income of the guy who makes $10,000,000.

Originally Posted by Skybird

20% for somebody having less than 1000 dollars per month, and a family, is much.

20% for a multi-millionaire is something he does not even feel. You cannot drive more than one Ferrari at a time, you cannot live in more than one villa at a time.

20% is 20%. It's the same for everyone. While the guy making $10,000 a year will not like seeing his $2000 go to the government, the guy making $10 million will not like seeing his $2 million go either. And $2 million is a whole lot more than $2000. That rich guy is contributing the same total as 1000 poor guys.


People seem to think rich people don't deserve their money and property. As long as they did not get it by illegal means, it's not your business. If you don't like making $10,000 a year, America gives you ample opportunity to do something about it. No one is stopping you from doing better.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

20% is 20%. It's the same for everyone. While the guy making $10,000 a year will not like seeing his $2000 go to the government, the guy making $10 million will not like seeing his $2 million go either.

No, the man making $10,000 is going to miss that 20% a heck of a lot more than the man making $10,000,000 will. If you take $2,000 from a man making $10,000, he may not be able to afford the bus fare to get to work. If you took $2mm from someone making $10mm, he's still got enough to drive a different luxury car to work every day.

And $2 million is a whole lot more than $2000. That rich guy is contributing the same total as 1000 poor guys.

And then there's also the flip side of your argument, which is actually an argument for my side. How much economic activity will 1000 people generate versus one person? A rich man may go out and spend $2000 a year on clothes. How much will 1000 less well off people spend if they spent...oh let's say $200 a year? $200,000. A thousand people spending $200,000 stimulates an economy a lot more, and more broadly, than one person spending $2000. We can lessen the tax burden on 1000 poor guys by increasing it slightly on one rich guy.

And to continue our example - your 20% tax rate on a guy making $10,000 a year may mean that he only spends $100 on clothes because he still has to buy food and pay rent, and have transportation to his job. If you increased the tax rate to 25% or 30% on the rich guy, he's still going to have the ability to spend $2000 on clothes without seriously impacting his lifestyle.

Like Skybird said, there's only so many cars and houses one person can consume. You get more economic bang for your buck by stimulating the middle class (if you believe that lower taxes are stimulative, which is another whole post in itself.) than the fractionally smaller upper class.

People seem to think rich people don't deserve their money and property.

That's a mischaracterization of the argument.

As long as they did not get it by illegal means, it's not your business.

Ah, but then there's the question of legality. Are laws automatically good based on the fact that they're a law? Is it right for the rich to use their wealth lobby Congress to enact laws that favor them at the expense of everyone else? Is it right for B of A or Citigroup or JP Morgan to use their influence to have Congress remove consumer protection laws and oversight? Is it right for them to avoid criminal penalty for outright fraud? Is it right for rich donors in Texas to lobby the state legislature to enact a tax break for a yacht purchase, at the same time we're cutting school bus service and teachers have to use half the light switches in a room to save on electric bills?

If you don't like making $10,000 a year, America gives you ample opportunity to do something about it. No one is stopping you from doing better.

If only it were that easy.

One reason for the mobility gap may be the depth of American poverty, which leaves poor children starting especially far behind. Another may be the unusually large premiums that American employers pay for college degrees. Since children generally follow their parents' educational trajectory, that premium increases the importance of family background and stymies people with less schooling.

And that's just scratching the surface.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us...pagewanted=all