Here we go again-Ukraine once again pt2

[August]

Thing about those russian dragons teeth is they are just placed on the ground and not attached to it like the ones on the old nazi Siegfried line. (No German engineering in Ivans Army). Half a squad with a strong metal pole can run it through the conveniently placed ring bolt at the top and lift it right up out of place.

[mapuc]

The Ukrainians had high hopes for the Leopard 2-How well did it do at the frontline?

Now they will receive Abrams from USA. Even here they have high hopes. Let see how well it does it in another type of warfare.

Markus

[Skybird]

Problem is western tanks are designed predominantly with tank on tank combat on mind - which practically does not take place in this war. Tanks mostly get taken out by drones, atgm, mines, helicopters - not by rounds from enemy tanks.

Western takes will harvest on other vehicles and targets. But they suffer losses from threats that are not what they were örimarily hardened against : tank rounds.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Problem is western tanks are designed predominantly with tank on tank combat on mind - which practically does not take place in this war. Tanks mostly get taken out by drones, atgm, mines, helicopters - not by rounds from enemy tanks.

Western takes will harvest on other vehicles and targets. But they suffer losses from threats that are not what they were örimarily hardened against : tank rounds.

The reason why I wrote in another type of warfare.

Ukrainian are also getting these together with the Abrams

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium

Markus

[Dargo]

Originally Posted by tonschk

But the price Ukraine have paid for these small gains is already too high.

The whole idea of throwing waves and waves of ukrainian soldiers across heavily mined and fortified open terrain, under the watchful eyes of Russian drones, just shows the callousness of both the West and the Ukrainian leadership. It wasn’t so much an offensive as have been a massacre.


As Ukraine’s offensive stalls, are negotiations on the agenda?

https://socialist.net/as-ukraines-of...on-the-agenda/

To negotiate, both parties need to want that for real not to re|group/build I do not see Russia changing their original plan to control or rule over Ukraine, so no negotiations are not on the agenda soon this conflict will go on for years.

[Dargo]

Originally Posted by Skybird

To classify the current front breakthrough.



[Neue Zürcher Zeitung, interactive map]

The red circle southwest of the blue breach area is Tokmak. The dark dotted line is railway.

I wonder what kind of terrain the area further south of the current breach is, the Russians have almost no fortifications there (according to this map at least) and seem to rely on the terrain protecting them...?! Without knowledge of that terrain one cannot assess whether or not it is an option to move south and then turn west for Melitopol to bypass all the defences that lie on a straight line between Tokmak and Melitopol. Probably swamps or anything else that prevents mechanized forces from moving through?!

The railway should theoretically alreadsy now be in range of tube artillery, but probably at the risk of having to set up that artillery in range of Russian counter artillery.

It looks as if the Ukrainians indeed have swung the wheel around. Looks as if the only thing that can stop them now is lacking reserves to keep the offensive pushing, but one woudl assume they know that themselkves and somehow take care of that. But obviuously they need a constant stream of ammo and weapons from the West.



--------------


Ukraine claims it can now reahc targets in Russia 1500km away, with weapons from own production, it insists that it doies not use Western-delivered weapons for strikes into Russia, a sit always has promsied. There is not a single violation known so far. - You hear that, Bubble Olaf?

To add. One breakthrough in the frontline is not enough, Ukraine needs to break through on other places too else Russia can concentrate their defense on Tokmak to further slow the Ukraine offensive.

[Jimbuna]

[Catfish]

Tanks are not completely obsolete, but as long as you have their coordinates via drones ..

Also Russia reportedly lost 23 tanks alone yesterday, and over 30 logistical vehicles. Focusing just on tanks - assuming of course losing 23 in one day is, umm, not "normal", they clearly still lose an average of a few a day. How many tanks can Russia produce? According to the Russian ministries own figures, they produced 250 in 2021 - and many of these were refurbished older tanks.

Russians are currently conducting a massive offensive in the Luhansk area for a number of weeks - but have made no progress. The fact that they are pushing hard with lots of tanks - and each attack is being repulsed.
Common sense they are therefore losing a lot of tanks plus the daily footage of destroyed tanks we are seeing on social media popping up

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by mapuc

The reason why I wrote in another type of warfare.

Ukrainian are also getting these together with the Abrams

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium

Markus

It does not need an uranium SABOT to pierce a vehicle that is not a tank. And as non-explosive, it is no good choice to bust bunkers or buildings as long as it is not desperate circumstances.
Possible the uranium SABOT reaches farther than HE(AT), compensating for the loss of kinetic energy compared to a non-uraniu SABOT. But how often do you have terrain and weather that you trade tank rounds at 5 km ?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Dargo

To add. One breakthrough in the frontline is not enough, Ukraine needs to break through on other places too else Russia can concentrate their defense on Tokmak to further slow the Ukraine offensive.

Russia already now must split its supplies to the defence of Tokmak area, and their counteroffensive at Kupjansk. The Ukrainian offensive at this stage looks like the far more threatening of the two.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Skybird

It does not need an uranium SABOT to pierce a vehicle that is not a tank. And as non-explosive, it is no good choice to bust bunkers or buildings as long as it is not desperate circumstances.
Possible the uranium SABOT reaches farther than HE(AT), compensating for the loss of kinetic energy compared to a non-uraniu SABOT. But how often do you have terrain and weather that you trade tank rounds at 5 km ?

You could be right from what I know-The things I know about the war and the strategic is what I read here and what I see, hear and read in the news.

I do remember that Russia had threaten with nukes if Ukraine got depleted Uranium.
(I take it with a smile on my face)

Markus

[Catfish]

The people dying for Russia are hardly "russians" or Putin's soldiers, or to put it directly:
No casualties from St. Petersburg or Moscow.



If Putin continues I guess it will change soon.

[mapuc]

I'm watching a livestream with combat veterans reacts

Right now he is going through how you approach a defended trench from three side

Markus

[Skybird]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-in-stronghold

“As soon as any equipment appeared there, the Russians immediately began to fire at it and destroy it. That’s why de-mining was carried out only by infantry and only at night.”
Now that the minefield has been breached, Russians have lost much of their advantage. “There is a very big difference between the first and second line of defence,” said Tarnavskiy.

He says the sweocnd line is less fortified than the first. So far OI always red that the firts liune is the weakets and the third the strongest. Hm. Fog of War. For of misinformation.

[Dargo]

Originally Posted by Catfish

The people dying for Russia are hardly "russians" or Putin's soldiers, or to put it directly:
No casualties from St. Petersburg or Moscow.



If Putin continues I guess it will change soon.

This is the reason why Putin has not announced a general mobilization, he can not afford body bags in Moscow and St Petersburg. Btw this is the Russian system as dictator, do not let Moscow and St Petersburg suffer else you lose your head.

Originally Posted by Skybird

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-in-stronghold





He says the sweocnd line is less fortified than the first. So far OI always red that the firts liune is the weakets and the third the strongest. Hm. Fog of War. For of misinformation.

The Surovikin line is too big, would take millions (including reserves behind) to man it properly.

Originally Posted by Skybird

Russia already now must split its supplies to the defence of Tokmak area, and their counteroffensive at Kupjansk. The Ukrainian offensive at this stage looks like the far more threatening of the two.

Glad that Russian doctrine has failed them again the whole northeast Russian offensive is failing and not taken away Ukraine ability to strike elsewhere, even see reports by Russian sources of landing on the Kinburn Spit and in the Podstepne region on the left bank of the Dnieper of Ukraine forces remind me of last year successful offensive of Ukraine same rumors.