World War One

[Oberon]

A seperate thread aside from the 100 years thread which chronicles the day by day events. This thread is for general discussion about the war as well as remembering family members who fought in the war, both those who lived and those who died.

[Betonov]

I'm planing a trip to Bovec on Saturday. It has a WW1 museum focusing on Slovenes on the Soča front (Isonzo front but I'll be offended if you use that very very incorrect Italian name for a Slovene river).

[Dread Knot]

To start things off I found an interesting article on the BBC a few months back that tried to debunk some of the most common myths about the Great War. I'm sure some of them can be cannon fodder for...debate.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-25776836

1. It was the bloodiest war in history to that point. The 1850-1864 Taiping Rebellion in China killed more.

2. Most soldiers died. For British soldiers it was 11.5%, less than during the Crimean War.

3. Men lived in the trenches for years on end. More like 10 days a month and three in a row at the front line tops.

4. The upper class got off lightly. The death rate was 12% of soldiers, 17% of officers. Eton lost more than 1,000 former pupils - 20% of those who served.

5. 'Lions led by donkeys'. Over 200 generals killed, injured or captured and a unique type of war was won organizing a multinational force.

6. Gallipoli was fought by Australians and New Zealanders. British losses were higher than both Australian and NZ and the French lost more than the Australians.

7. Tactics on the Western Front remained unchanged despite repeated failure. There were significant equipment and tactical changes during the war, from planes to helmets.

8. No-one won. Germany surrendered before the country was crushed as it would be in WWII. It was still a loss to Germany.

9. The Versailles Treaty was extremely harsh. Germany was still the biggest and richest country in Europe and much of the reparations went unenforced. It was not as harsh as after WWII.

10. Everyone hated it. Those not on the front line often had better food, more money and more freedom than at home.

[Sailor Steve]

WOW! This is off to a great start! Good job Jamie for starting it, and to everyone who's posted so far.

[BossMark]

I can recall my granddad telling me that my great granddads brother (my great uncle I believe) was a gunnery officer on HMS Warspite and took part in the battle of Jutland

[Jimbuna]

My grandfather (mothers father) served in the army and was buried alive during an artillery bombardment. He survived but was as deaf as a post for the rest of his life.

I can still remember growing up with him beside me on many a dark night but much to my shame I'm unable to remember any of the details of his regiment etc. and my mom (suffers from dementia) can no longer remind me.

[Oberon]

Finished my post.

[Downunderjock]

Originally Posted by Dread Knot

To start things off I found an interesting article on the BBC a few months back that tried to debunk some of the most common myths about the Great War. I'm sure some of them can be cannon fodder for...debate.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-25776836

1. It was the bloodiest war in history to that point. The 1850-1864 Taiping Rebellion in China killed more.

2. Most soldiers died. For British soldiers it was 11.5%, less than during the Crimean War.

3. Men lived in the trenches for years on end. More like 10 days a month and three in a row at the front line tops.

4. The upper class got off lightly. The death rate was 12% of soldiers, 17% of officers. Eton lost more than 1,000 former pupils - 20% of those who served.

5. 'Lions led by donkeys'. Over 200 generals killed, injured or captured and a unique type of war was won organizing a multinational force.

6. Gallipoli was fought by Australians and New Zealanders. British losses were higher than both Australian and NZ and the French lost more than the Australians.

7. Tactics on the Western Front remained unchanged despite repeated failure. There were significant equipment and tactical changes during the war, from planes to helmets.

8. No-one won. Germany surrendered before the country was crushed as it would be in WWII. It was still a loss to Germany.

9. The Versailles Treaty was extremely harsh. Germany was still the biggest and richest country in Europe and much of the reparations went unenforced. It was not as harsh as after WWII.

10. Everyone hated it. Those not on the front line often had better food, more money and more freedom than at home.

To Dread Knot and others.

You are correct about us, Aussie's and Kiwis losses at Gallipoli was not as great as the Brits, French and even the Turks.

We where not exactly, under Generals, from our only country, and wrong beach, among other things.

Just, as the Brits, had a similar problems.
Like guess where the generals were, far out to sea on ships.

If, I may ask you and others to read my Thread/ Posts under the heading ANZAC DAY. and tell me, if you like your thoughts.

Maybe, for us it hurt just as much, esp when you consider the families, of the fallen and wounded, could not travel, to such a place, so easily, as per distance. (same for Europe.)

Their is a book called "Distant Grief" that talks of the work of the newly formed CWGC, and it's work as time went on. You all might like to have a read.

This book, not only looked at what, the CWGC was doing or did, but it also, looked from the point of view of Australian and possibly, Kiwi families, Govts, via letters or newspaper articles, to and from the newly appointed, CWGC.

We here in OZ, even back in WW1, via letters from families, wanted the lads, to be brought home, for proper burial. (I gather the same, for most of the Allies and even the Germans, too. etc.)

However, as I kinda knew and the book, talks of the reasons, for it not to be possible. We may be able to do that now days, but back in WW1 and WW2, there were a lot of things that could have gone wrong, mid travel by sea, etc.

As an example, the "Battle of Krithia" in Gallipoli, after a 60 minutes show about, why all Govts, won't even look, at where the fallen, might be buried.
Let alone, place a formal memorial, to honour them all. (Turks, too.)

Some feel, they should be brought back home. even after nye 100 years on.

Like the Fromelles, lads, they where reburied, now with proper headstone, etc. not brought home.

(just like we have some lads, who actually have headstones, in a grave at a cemetery well looked after, who fell in the Vietnam war, some in Malaysia, one in Singapore CWG.)

However, for both these groups, one war historian, (I think an Australian.) feels, and some agree. That for both groups, the WW1 lads and these Vietnam lads, should remain where they are resting, at least they are with their mates, and other allied friends. (even their foe.)

And I hate, to say this, but I think the same way. No disrespect to descendants, etc. The Viet lads, are at least resting in a proper grave etc.

Those of the WW1 group, maybe one day, they too, might have like they did for the Fromelles lads.

So, if you get the chance to get hole of this book, I might be a grown man of 49+, but I can tell you, it left a tear in my eye.

[Jimbuna]

Sinking of the Lusitania

On February 4, 1915, the German government declared the seas around the British Isles to be a war zone and that beginning February 18, Allied ships in the area would be sunk without warning. As Lusitania was scheduled to reach Liverpool on March 6, the Admiralty provided Captain Daniel Dow with instructions on how to avoid submarines. With the liner approaching, two destroyers were dispatched to escort Lusitania into port. Unsure whether the approaching warships were British or German, Dow eluded them and reached Liverpool on his own.

The following month, Lusitania departed for New York on April 17, with Captain William Thomas Turner in command. The commodore of the Cunard fleet, Turner was an experienced mariner and reached New York on the 24th. During this time, several concerned German-American citizens approached the German embassy in an effort to avoid controversy should the liner be attacked by a u-boat. Taking their concerns to heart, the embassy placed ads in fifty American newspapers on April 22 warning that neutral travelers aboard British-flagged vessels en route to the war zone sailed at their own risk.

Usually printed next to Lusitania's sailing announcement, the German warning caused some agitation in the press and concern among the ship's passengers. Citing that the ship's speed made it nearly invulnerable to attack, Turner and his officers worked to calm those aboard. Sailing on May 1 as scheduled, Lusitania departed Pier 54 and began its return voyage. While the liner was crossing the Atlantic, U-20, commanded by Captain Lieutenant Walther Schwieger, was operating off the west and south coasts of Ireland. Between May 5 and 6, Schwieger sank three merchant vessels.

His activity led the Admiralty, who was tracking his movements via intercepts, to issue submarine warnings for the south coast of Ireland. Turner twice received this message on May 6 and took several precautions including closing watertight doors, swinging out the lifeboats, doubling the lookouts, and blacking out the ship. Trusting the ship's speed, he did not begin following a zi-zag course as recommended by the Admiralty. Upon receiving another warning around 11:00 AM on May 7, he turned northeast towards the coast, incorrectly believing that submarines would likely keep to the open sea.

Possessing only three torpedoes and low on fuel, Schwieger had decided to return to base when a vessel was spotted around 1:00 PM. Diving, U-20 moved to investigate. Encountering fog, Turner slowed to 18 knots as the liner steered for Queenstown (Cosh), Ireland. As Lusitania crossed his bow, Schwieger opened fire at 2:10 PM. His torpedo hit the liner below the bridge on the starboard side. It was quickly followed by a second explosion in the starboard bow. While many theories have been put forward, the second was most likely caused by an internal steam explosion.



Immediately sending an SOS, Turner tried steering the ship towards the coast with the goal of beaching it, but the steering failed to respond. Listing at 15 degrees, the engines pushed the ship forward, driving more water into the hull. Six minutes after the hit, the bow slipped under the water, which along with the increasingly list, severely hampered efforts to launch the lifeboats. As chaos swept the liner's decks, many lifeboats were lost due to the ship's speed or spilled their passengers as they were lowered. Around 2:28, eighteen minutes after the torpedo hit, Lusitania slipped beneath the waves approximately eight miles off the Old Head of Kinsale.





Aftermath:

The sinking claimed the lives of 1,198 of Lusitania's passengers and crew, with only 761 surviving. Among the dead were 128 American citizens. Immediately inciting international outrage, the sinking quickly turned public opinion against Germany and its allies. The German government attempted to justify the sinking by stating that Lusitania was classified as an auxiliary cruiser and was carrying military cargo. They were technically correct on both counts, as Lusitania was under orders to ram u-boats and its cargo included a shipment of bullets, 3-inch shells, and fuses.

Outraged at the death of American citizens, many in the United States called for President Woodrow Wilson to declare war on Germany. While encouraged by the British, Wilson refused and urged restraint. Issuing three diplomatic notes in May, June, and July, Wilson affirmed the rights of US citizens to travel safely at sea and warned that future sinkings would be viewed as "deliberately unfriendly." Following the sinking of the liner SS Arabic in August, American pressure bore fruit as the Germans offered an indemnity and issued orders prohibiting their commanders from surprise attacks on merchant vessels. That September, the Germans halted their campaign of unrestricted submarine warfare. Its resumption, along with other provocative acts such as the Zimmermann Telegram, would ultimately pull the United States into the conflict.

http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/.../lusitania.htm

[Aktungbby]

Fifteen minutes after he had fired his torpedo, Schwieger noted in his war diary:
"It looks as if the ship will stay afloat only for a very short time. [I gave order to] dive to 25 metres (82 ft) and leave the area seawards. I couldn't have fired another torpedo into this mass of humans desperately trying to save themselves." There was at the time and remains now a great controversy about the sinking, over whether Lusitania was smuggling contraband war material to England and over the number of torpedoes Schwieger fired.
Before he got back to the docks at Wilhelmshaven for refuelling and resupply, the United States had formally protested to Berlin against the brutality of his action.
KaiserWilhelm II wrote in the margins of the American note, "Utterly impertinent", "outrageous", and "this is the most insolent thing in tone and bearing that I have had to read since the Japanese note last August." Nevertheless, to keep America out of the war, in June the Kaiser was compelled to rescind unrestricted submarine warfare and require all passenger liners be left unmolested.
On 4 September 1915 Schwieger was back at sea with U-20, 85 nautical miles (157 km) off the Fastnet Rock in the south Irish Sea. This rock held one of the key navigational markers in the western ocean, the Fastnet Lighthouse, and any ships passing in and out of the Irish Sea would be within visual contact of it.
RMS Hesperian was now beginning a new run outward bound from Liverpool to Quebec and Montreal, with a general cargo, also doubling as a hospital ship, and carrying about 800 passengers. She was attacked off the Fastnet, a landmark islet in the north Atlantic, off the south-west coast of Ireland. The "Only a few days before, Count Bernsdorff, the German Ambassador, had assured the United States government that passenger liners will not be sunk without warning and without ensuring the safety of the non combatants aboard providing that the liners do not try to escape or offer resistance."
This time, Schwieger was received with official disgust upon his return to Wilhelmshaven. Ordered to report to Berlin to explain himself, he was required to apologise for having sunk another passenger liner in defiance of a direct order not to do so again. He complained about his treatment in Berlin thereafter.
After his death in 1917, his submarine having struck a mine off the Frisian Islands, Schwieger was forgiven in Berlin. He received Germany's highest decoration, the Pour le Mérite. At the time of his death, Schwieger had sunk 49 ships with 183,883 tons-with three submarines on 34 missions. He was the Sixth most successful commander of WWI.[wiki] The Hesperian sank over a day after being torpedoed, on 6 September 1915, while being towed to Ireland. Thirty-two people were killed when a lifeboat upset while lowering. Hesperian was also carrying the body of Lusitania victim Frances Stephens on her last voyage, with Mrs. Stephens being sunk twice by the same submarine and commander. The body of Mrs. Stephens was still aboard as well. Mrs. Stephens’ casket, presumably still in Hesperian‘s hold, now lies not far from the Lusitania wreck which took her life. http://www.rmslusitania.info/people/saloon/frances-stephens/ The Hesperian sank over a day after being torpedoed, on 6 September 1915, while being towed to Ireland. The survivors were rescued during the night by several wary British ships in the vicinity and taken to Ireland. One man who had been blinded on the Western Front had his sight restored by the shock of the explosion. A boy had been left behind, sleeping in his bunk, throughout the sinking. The ship’s watertight bulkheads kept the ship afloat; the vessel was evacuated in less than an hour. Only the captain and several officers had remained on board as a skeleton crew. Captain Main hoped to beach the Hesperian or have her towed to Queenstown. The ship never made it. On 6 September 1915, Hesperian succumbed to the waves, sinking some 37 miles from land and not far from the Lusitania wreck.
Fastnet Lighthouse: Both a beacon and a deathtrap. U-20's notorious hunting ground.

[Sailor Steve]

I've just finished watching Lusitania: Murder on the Atlantic (aka Sinking of the Lusitania: Terror at sea).


I had not heard of this film until today, when I watched Iambecomelife's excellent tribute. Despite the lurid title, the made-for-TV movie is very even handed, telling the story from both sides fairly faithfully. There are quite a few anachronisms, but that has to be expected given the low budget involved.

The events are recreated well, and stick mostly to the known facts. I recommend it.

[Rhodes]

3 images from the BD books from TARDI, C'Étais La Guerre de la Tranchées and

Goddamn this War! (English title of the book, since the original french one has a stronger word, please look it at google):

For me, this author can deliver, in a comic/BD way, all the madness of 1º World War.

Edit: changing the name of the second book.

[Oberon]

I have at least three family members that I am aware of who fought in the First world war.




Edward Clack in 1917, his military medal ribbon visible. His wife, who he married that year, Madge Hayes is also shown.

The first, who I know the most about, is Lance-Sergeant Edward Clack who joined up on the 18th August 1914, joining the Wiltshire Regiment at Devizes and being assigned to the 5th Battalion and sent to Anzac bay in August 1915, landing to support the 'August Offensive'. However during the Ottoman counter-attack of the 10th August, he and a group of four other men were wounded by Ataturks forces and trapped in a gulley for a fortnight before being found and retrieved by a search party.

The Battalions diary for the 10th August notes:

Tuesday August 10th 1915. (Battalion War Diary entry).
(01.00): Battalion moves away in single file less D company and part of B Company. Order of march C - Machine guns - A - B companies "Move by a steep and winding course to a cup-shaped deformation at the head of the Gulley to the right and some distance in front of our salient." (Words of 2 Lieut R.W.M. Dewhurst one of the few officers on the march who subsequently survived.) The Battalion was guided, as far as I am able to ascertain by a New Zealand Officer. Here they arrived two hours before sunrise (0300) and the men were told to dig into dugouts and make themselves comfortable as the position was quite safe. Men therefore removed equipment and rifles. This position I take it to be just N. of the H in Chunuk Bair and the march to it from the Aghyl Dere must have been via the APEX (Ref. Gallipoli Map 1.20,000 Koya Dere) (0430) As soon as it was light machine guns opened on the men lying in their dug outs. About 1/4 of an hour later there was a rush of Turks from both sides of the depression which drove the men, unarmed and unequipped down the gulley (SALZLI BEIT). The bottom of the gulley commanded by machine guns and so escape was cut off. Three courses were possible:-

1. To rush past the machine guns down the Sazli Beit, this was tried but in nearly all cases proved fatal.
2. To climb the northern slope of the ravine under fire and try to escape over the top. This was done in a few cases
with success.
3. Hide in Gulley till night; this also was done with more success. (A party of 5 men was rescued from the Gulley
having been there 16 days from August 10th to August 26th. They reported numbers of men, who were wounded,
unable to get away and died of exhaustion and starvation.).

Parties arrived on the Beach in fours, fives, and some carried bodies during the 11th, 12th and 13th unarmed, unequipped and demoralised.

FROM: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/fo...owtopic=154975

The medical record I have on file from the then Private Edward Clack have his date of wounding on the 10th August, but the record itself is not actually dated until the 26th August. It is therefore likely that he was one of the group of five men rescued from the Gulley on the 26th.
He suffered a gun shot wound to the left leg and was returned to England.
In December of the same year he returned to service as part of the 6th Battalion Wiltshire Regiment, where he served until the 5th July 1916, where he was wounded again during the Battle of the Somme at La Boisselle (part of the Battle of Albert) suffering wounds in the right thigh and shoulder. Again, he returned to England, and again he came back, on the 5th April 1917, joining the 1st Battalion of the Wiltshire Regiment in the field. He was involved as an orderly, conducting messages during the attack on Messines Ridge in July 1917, where he was awarded the Military Medal for his service under fire, apparently at one point he was half buried by shell fire, but dug himself out and continued in his duty. Promotion to Lance Corporal soon followed, and by the 12th August he was Corporal Edward Clack. However, nine days later he was wounded at the Battle of Passchendaele, likely in the Westhoek area (although it is possible that he was wounded at Dominion Camp by an enemy aircraft, the Battalion diary notes on the night of the 20th August that '3 Casualties were caused to the Battn by bombs dropped in the neighbourhood of the camp by enemy aeroplanes on the night of the 20th. Wounded, 2nd Lieut G B Hillings and 2 other ranks.), receiving a gun shot wound to the left arm. Following recovery, this time he was posted into the reserve unit, joining the 3rd Battalion back in England, and being promoted to Lance-Sergeant. It was there he remained until wars end, being demobbed in March 1919.


Private James Collins, date unknown.

The second relative who I am aware of, is Private James Collins, who served with the Gordon Highlanders (and possibly the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders too), I don't know much of his service record but I know that he was injured in the Roclincourt area, between the dates of 9-12th April 1917, possibly by machine-gun fire, and he subsequently died of his wounds a month later. He's mentioned in the Casualty list of the Highlanders here: http://gordonhighlanders.carolynmorr...tApril1917.htm and the Battalion diaries mention casualties from machine-gun fire around that period: http://gordonhighlanders.carolynmorr...-April1917.htm


Robert Currie, date unknown

The third relative is Robert Currie, and sadly I have no real information about him other than he left his wife and she subsequently told her grand-children that he had died during the war when in fact he had survived, and it wasn't until my great-uncle was 22 that he finally met him. I don't know what unit he served in, but it would seem from the photos I have that he had something to do with horses, so he could have been an artillery driver or cavalry based.

There is a fourth relative, who I think might be my great-grandmothers father, but aside from his photograph I have no information about him and there's no-one left alive on that side of the family to assist.

[Dread Knot]

Originally Posted by Oberon

I have at least three family members that I am aware of who fought in the First world war.




Edward Clack in 1917, his military medal ribbon visible. His wife, who he married that year, Madge Hayes is also shown.

Fascinating bio.

So he participated in Gallipoli, The Somme, Passchendaele and Messines Ridge?

Gads. If anyone ever deserved reserve status it was this brave chap.

[Platapus]

"We were off to fight the Hun
We would shoot him with a gun
Our medals would shine like a sabre in the sun
We were off to fight the Hun
And it seemed like so much fun
It did not seem to be a war at all; at all ;at all
It did not seem to be a war at all...."


Here is an interesting video on the war.
http://www.canadaka.net/video/659-we...t-the-hun.html