[WIP] Historical Guns Specs

[keysersoze]

I've been collecting information about escorts recently, most of it dealing with sensors and depth charges. I have a couple questions:

First, is it possible to mod destroyer behavior to get them to drop depth charges in patterns? I have some good information about the procedure for dropping five, ten, and fourteen depth charge patterns using stern rails and K-guns. Is this worth looking into, or is destroyer behavior hardcoded?

Second, does the game treat all depth charges as universally the same, or is it possible to have different types of charges, each with a different kill radius, sink time, and depth setting? This would be especially important for the implementation of depth charge patterns, since the ten and fourteen charge patterns used a combination of regular Mk. VII DCs (sink rate of 3 m/sec) and Mk. VII Heavy DCs (sink rate of 5.1 m/sec) to create a three dimensional diamond pattern for the largest possible kill radius.

[gap]

Originally Posted by keysersoze

I've been collecting information about escorts recently, most of it dealing with sensors and depth charges. I have a couple questions:

Sounds promising

Originally Posted by keysersoze

I have a couple questions:

First, is it possible to mod destroyer behavior to get them to drop depth charges in patterns? I have some good information about the procedure for dropping five, ten, and fourteen depth charge patterns using stern rails and K-guns. Is this worth looking into, or is destroyer behavior hardcoded?

TDW has already managed implementing group ASW strategies into his IRAI. I suggest you to address the findings of your research directly to him, in the IRAI thread. Be prepared to long reply waiting times though: these days TDW is not always online, and he is mostly focusing on the GR2 Editor.

Talking about WWII ASW tactics, have you ever seen this nice educational flash game by BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwa...atlantic.shtml

Originally Posted by keysersoze

Second, does the game treat all depth charges as universally the same, or is it possible to have different types of charges, each with a different kill radius, sink time, and depth setting? This would be especially important for the implementation of depth charge patterns, since the ten and fourteen charge patterns used a combination of regular Mk. VII DCs (sink rate of 3 m/sec) and Mk. VII Heavy DCs (sink rate of 5.1 m/sec) to create a three dimensional diamond pattern for the largest possible kill radius.

There are 2 types of depth charges in game: 'Standard' (which I suppose are designed to represent Mk VII dc's) and 'Mk9'.
Each can be given the following properties:

fall_speed (the under water falling speed [m/s])
detonate_depth (the detonating depth [m])
depth_precision (the depth sensor precision [m])
explosion_range (the explosion range [m])
explosion_impulse (the explosion impulse [t*m/s]

+ the usual damage properties, seen also in other weapons:

MinEF (the min hit points this ammunition worths)
MaxEF (the max hit points this ammunition worths)
AP (the armor level it penetrates)
MinRadius (the minimum radius of splash damage. The ammunition takes all its hitpoints util this distance)
MaxRadius (the maximum radius of splash damage. The ammunition takes no hitpoints beyond this distance. If 0 no splash)

If, needed, I think we can add new depth charge types, but there could be some technical limitation, as I never actually tried to do it.

Each DC rack/DC thrower is set in game to drop only one type of depth charge (either the standard ones or the MK9); multiple DC types assigned to the same trower are theoretically possible, but not used in stock game. I ignore if, in case of multiple DC type outfits, the type of depth charge currently used by each unit can be controlled through IRAI scripting. We should ask TDW on it

[keysersoze]

Originally Posted by gap

TDW has already managed implementing group ASW strategies into his IRAI. I suggest you to address the findings of your research directly to him, in the IRAI thread. Be prepared to long reply waiting times though: these days TDW is not always online, and he is mostly focusing on the GR2 Editor.

Okay, I'll post in the IRAI thread.

Originally Posted by gap

Talking about WWII ASW tactics, have you ever seen this nice educational flash game by BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwa...atlantic.shtml

Thanks for the link. I had not seen that flash game before. It's a nice way to visualize some of the tactics I've been reading about.

Originally Posted by gap

There are 2 types of depth charges in game: 'Standard' (which I suppose are designed to represent Mk VII dc's) and 'Mk9'.
Each can be given the following properties:

fall_speed (the under water falling speed [m/s])
detonate_depth (the detonating depth [m])
depth_precision (the depth sensor precision [m])
explosion_range (the explosion range [m])
explosion_impulse (the explosion impulse [t*m/s]

+ the usual damage properties, seen also in other weapons:

MinEF (the min hit points this ammunition worths)
MaxEF (the max hit points this ammunition worths)
AP (the armor level it penetrates)
MinRadius (the minimum radius of splash damage. The ammunition takes all its hitpoints util this distance)
MaxRadius (the maximum radius of splash damage. The ammunition takes no hitpoints beyond this distance. If 0 no splash)

Good to know all this stuff is moddable. Those should be the most important parameters for altering depth charge specifications. Forgive the noob question, but which file controls these properties? I don't really have any modding skills, but I thought it would be interesting do some limited experimentation.

Originally Posted by gap

If, needed, I think we can add new depth charge types, but there could be some technical limitation, as I never actually tried to do it.

Great to hear this is at least a possibility! It would be nice to have both the Mk. VII and the Mk. VII Heavy at a minimum. Although it might be more trouble than it's worth since it was only used rarely in the war, it would be interesting to see a Mk. X in the game. It has over 900 kg of explosion charge, compared to the 140 kg of a Mk. VII. Apparently, it had nearly a 50% kill rate when used against U-boats

[gap]

Originally Posted by keysersoze

Good to know all this stuff is moddable. Those should be the most important parameters for altering depth charge specifications. Forgive the noob question, but which file controls these properties? I don't really have any modding skills, but I thought it would be interesting do some limited experimentation.

The properties I have described in my previous post are part of the amun_DepthCharge and AmmoDamageInfo controllers, respectively found in DC_barrels.sim and DC_barrels.zon files (path: data\Library). In order to edit them, you need to open the DC_barrels.GR2 file first. Here is the step by step procedure:

- If you haven't ever messed with Goblin Editor, navigate to SH5's main folder, locate GoblinEditorApp.exe, right click on it, select the Compatibility tab and check 'Disable visual themes'. This will get rid of flickering selection boxes when you run the application.

- Run Goblin Editor, again, if it is the first time you use it, you should make it to point to the correct SH5 installation folder. Have a glance to this tutorial for more details on how to do it.

- Now Goblin is ready for use: from the File menu, select Open, and open the DC_barrels.GR2 file. In the preview window you should see the two DC barrels featured in game.

- From the File menu, select Merge, and merge DC_barrels.sim into the project.

- Merge similarly the DC_barrels.zon file.

- At this time, both DC_barrels.sim and DC_barrels.zon should be diplayed in the Project Tree vindow. Expand them for seeing their controllers. Each DC type got its own controllers. Double click on any of them, and select then the controller whose properties you want to edit from the 'Edit Behavior' window.

- When you have done with the changes, close the 'Edit Behavior' window. You will notice that DC_barrels.sim and/or DC_barrels.zon controllers listing in 'Project Tree' window have become red, meaning that there are unsaved changes to these files. Right click on the red file names, and select 'Save file'. That's all

Originally Posted by keysersoze

Great to hear this is at least a possibility! It would be nice to have both the Mk. VII and the Mk. VII Heavy at a minimum. Although it might be more trouble than it's worth since it was only used rarely in the war, it would be interesting to see a Mk. X in the game. It has over 900 kg of explosion charge, compared to the 140 kg of a Mk. VII. Apparently, it had nearly a 50% kill rate when used against U-boats

Let's hope that we can get them in game. Fingers crossed

[keysersoze]

Originally Posted by gap

The properties I have described in my previous post are part of the amun_DepthCharge and AmmoDamageInfo controllers, respectively found in DC_barrels.sim and DC_barrels.zon files (path: data\Library). In order to edit them, you need to open the DC_barrels.GR2 file first. Here is the step by step procedure:

- If you haven't ever messed with Goblin Editor, navigate to SH5's main folder, locate GoblinEditorApp.exe, right click on it, select the Compatibility tab and check 'Disable visual themes'. This will get rid of flickering selection boxes when you run the application.

- Run Goblin Editor, again, if it is the first time you use it, you should make it to point to the correct SH5 installation folder. Have a glance to this tutorial for more details on how to do it.

- Now Goblin is ready for use: from the File menu, select Open, and open the DC_barrels.GR2 file. In the preview window you should see the two DC barrels featured in game.

- From the File menu, select Merge, and merge DC_barrels.sim into the project.

- Merge similarly the DC_barrels.zon file.

- At this time, both DC_barrels.sim and DC_barrels.zon should be diplayed in the Project Tree vindow. Expand them for seeing their controllers. Each DC type got its own controllers. Double click on any of them, and select then the controller whose properties you want to edit from the 'Edit Behavior' window.

- When you have done with the changes, close the 'Edit Behavior' window. You will notice that DC_barrels.sim and/or DC_barrels.zon controllers listing in 'Project Tree' window have become red, meaning that there are unsaved changes to these files. Right click on the red file names, and select 'Save file'. That's all

Thanks for the excellent step-by-step guide I'll give this a try as soon as I get some free time.

[gap]

Originally Posted by keysersoze

Thanks for the excellent step-by-step guide I'll give this a try as soon as I get some free time.

My pleasure... Popeye!
Keep us informed on any progress, please

[gap]

@ keysersoze

I have been looking into historical specifications document for guns elevation/training rates, and I have noticed that for 37mm Flaks you reported speed of 3 and 4 deg/s respectively. I understand that these guns had no motorized drive gear and that they had to be aimed manually, but the above figures seem a bit too low to me. What is your source for them? Can you confirm that there was no mistyping?

On this topic, I am also looking for likely elev/train rates of the 20mm guns, including the vierling. Unfortunately it is very hard to find this kind of information

P.S: as demonstrated by Sober, train/elev rate settings greatly affect aiming accuracy, and should be selected with care

[keysersoze]

Originally Posted by gap

@ keysersoze

I have been looking into historical specifications document for guns elevation/training rates, and I have noticed that for 37mm Flaks you reported speed of 3 and 4 deg/s respectively. I understand that these guns had no motorized drive gear and that they had to be aimed manually, but the above figures seem a bit too low to me. What is your source for them? Can you confirm that there was no mistyping?

That is quite slow. Unfortunately, I don't have the sources at hand right now. I will probably be in the library tomorrow afternoon and will check them then.

On a related note, I've been going back through the sources and adding references for all the information contained in that document. When I started the project, I didn't realize there would be so many discrepancies in the sources. When I am done with the next version (soon, I hope), it should be much easier to cross-reference data, identify problems, and come to a reasonable consensus.

Originally Posted by gap

On this topic, I am also looking for likely elev/train rates of the 20mm guns, including the vierling. Unfortunately it is very hard to find this kind of information

I will check for these as well, but I don't think they were included in the material I read. It's frustrating when an author provides information like elevation/training speed for one gun, but not for others.

[gap]

Originally Posted by keysersoze

That is quite slow. Unfortunately, I don't have the sources at hand right now. I will probably be in the library tomorrow afternoon and will check them then.

Okay, in the meanwhile I have elaborated some draft settings:

single and double 20mm Flaks train rate: I think that 20mm pedestal guns were trained directly by the gunner by means of their backrests. Nothing would have limited their training speed but their weight and impediment. A figure of 60 deg/sec seems reasonable to me, maybe a bit lesser for the C/38 twin due to the extra weight and inpediment given by its shield (50 deg/s).

single and double 20mm Flaks C/30 elevation rate: for what I can see from their SH5 models and from some histrorical pictures, these guns had to be elevated by means of an handwheel which would have limited their elevation rate. I am proposing a speed of 10 deg/s. Is it too low?

single and double 20mm Flaks C/38 elevation rate: acccording to German 20mm Flak in World War II by Werner Müller:
"...[C/38's] rates of traverse and elevation were improved [over Flak C/30], through the addition of an overdrive to each mechanism. One turn of the elevation handwheel raised the barrel 4 degrees, 12 degrees in overdrive...". This quote seems to suggest that C/38 elevation (and traverse) rates could have been 3 times faster than C/30 ones. This is probably referred to Wehrmacht models, but I don't see why it wouldn't apply as well to the naval mountings. By assuming it, I propose a figure of 30 deg/sec, which by the way is in accordance with the Flak C/38 twin elevation rate reported into your document.

Flakvierling's train and elevation rates: 30 deg/sec for both of them.

Flak 37 mm train and elevation rates: waiting for your answers

Originally Posted by keysersoze

On a related note, I've been going back through the sources and adding references for all the information contained in that document. When I started the project, I didn't realize there would be so many discrepancies in the sources. When I am done with the next version (soon, I hope), it should be much easier to cross-reference data, identify problems, and come to a reasonable consensus.

Can't wait for it

Originally Posted by keysersoze

I will check for these as well, but I don't think they were included in the material I read. It's frustrating when an author provides information like elevation/training speed for one gun, but not for others.

Let's be positive: we should be glad enough that he reported the desired information for at least one gun

[keysersoze]

Originally Posted by gap

Okay, in the meanwhile I have elaborated some draft settings:

single and double 20mm Flaks train rate: I think that 20mm pedestal guns were trained directly by the gunner by means of their backrests. Nothing would have limited their training speed but their weight and impediment. A figure of 60 deg/sec seems reasonable to me, maybe a bit lesser for the C/38 twin due to the extra weight and inpediment given by its shield (50 deg/s).

Originally Posted by gap

single and double 20mm Flaks C/30 elevation rate: for what I can see from their SH5 models and from some histrorical pictures, these guns had to be elevated by means of an handwheel which would have limited their elevation rate. I am proposing a speed of 10 deg/s. Is it too low?

See below.

Originally Posted by gap

single and double 20mm Flaks C/38 elevation rate: acccording to German 20mm Flak in World War II by Werner Müller:
"...[C/38's] rates of traverse and elevation were improved [over Flak C/30], through the addition of an overdrive to each mechanism. One turn of the elevation handwheel raised the barrel 4 degrees, 12 degrees in overdrive...". This quote seems to suggest that C/38 elevation (and traverse) rates could have been 3 times faster than C/30 ones. This is probably referred to Wehrmacht models, but I don't see why it wouldn't apply as well to the naval mountings. By assuming it, I propose a figure of 30 deg/sec, which by the way is in accordance with the Flak C/38 twin elevation rate reported into your document.

The elevation numbers for the C/30 and C/38 seem reasonable to me. Here's one more piece of information I discovered while reviewing Miroslaw Skwiot's German Naval Guns: 1939-1945 yesterday: "[the 20mm C/30] took 29-30 turns of the handwheel to move the column from its lowest to its highest position" (p. 380). If this is accurate, it would mean the C/30's elevation rate would be approximately 3.2-3.3 deg/turn, assuming the depression/elevation of -11/+85 degrees is accurate. Now if we only knew how long it took to crank the handwheel one time...

Originally Posted by gap

Flakvierling's train and elevation rates: 30 deg/sec for both of them.

Originally Posted by gap

Let's be positive: we should be glad enough that he reported the desired information for at least one gun

That's true. Many authors have probably run into the same problems we have with conflicting and incomplete sources.

[gap]

Originally Posted by keysersoze

The elevation numbers for the C/30 and C/38 seem reasonable to me. Here's one more piece of information I discovered while reviewing Miroslaw Skwiot's German Naval Guns: 1939-1945 yesterday: "[the 20mm C/30] took 29-30 turns of the handwheel to move the column from its lowest to its highest position" (p. 380). If this is accurate, it would mean the C/30's elevation rate would be approximately 3.2-3.3 deg/turn, assuming the depression/elevation of -11/+85 degrees is accurate.

Thank you for the helpful information
Since we are at it, can you look if your library can help us with deckgun's traverse/elevation rates?

Originally Posted by keysersoze

Now if we only knew how long it took to crank the handwheel one time...

This is what I wish to know, though I guess that this time would have depended on many factors, including crew fatigue, gun conditions, etc.

For my calculations I have supposed that 5 complete turns of the elevation handwheel would have taken 2 seconds, which may appear a bit too much considering the harsh operational condition of Atlantic boats. On the other hand, the resulting speed of 10 deg/s (8-8.3 considering your calculations) seems slow enough to me.

Imo, reducing it further would render C/30 Flaks almost useless, but indeed the final decision will be taken after a serious test in game. Volodya, are you there, what do you think?

BTW: stock traininig/elevation rate settings for light Flak guns are respectively 360 and 180 degrees per second

[volodya61]

Originally Posted by gap

On the other hand, the resulting speed of 10 deg/s (8-8.3 considering your calculations) seems slow enough to me.

Imo, reducing it further would render C/30 Flaks almost useless, but indeed the final decision will be taken after a serious test in game. Volodya, are you there, what do you think?

Yes Gabriele, I'm still here..
In my experience, decrease in the accuracy of guns occurs only when elevation speed less than 6-7 deg/sec.. if elevation speed is lower than 4 deg/sec then hit the target becomes impossible.. this is only true for the AA-guns and planes (as a target).. for deck guns all slightly different..

[gap]

Originally Posted by volodya61

Yes Gabriele, I'm still here..
In my experience, decrease in the accuracy of guns occurs only when elevation speed less than 6-7 deg/sec.. if elevation speed is lower than 4 deg/sec then hit the target becomes impossible.. this is only true for the AA-guns and planes (as a target).. for deck guns all slightly different..

So, elevation rates of 30-10 deg/sec are still too accurate? The window between 7 and 4 deg/sec is very narrow

[volodya61]

Originally Posted by gap

So, elevation rates of 30-10 deg/sec are still too accurate? The window between 7 and 4 deg/sec is very narrow

Yes, at least to light Flaks.. heavy Flaks I didn't checked yet..

EDIT: I mentioned earlier, we can't adjust the accuracy using this setting (trav/elev speed)..

[gap]

Originally Posted by volodya61

EDIT: I mentioned earlier, we can't adjust the accuracy using this setting (trav/elev speed)..

Yep, you had said that only heavily reduced elevation speeds would have affected aiming accuracy... but you didn't say how much heavily...

Since the stock setting is 180 deg/s, I thought we had still some margin, but lol 6 deg/s is 30 times slower

By the way, have you checked yet if the effect of tolerance factors gets more obvious at reduced trav/elev rates?

EDIT: could you have imagined when we started working on the flaks, that reducing their accuracy would have been an harder task than increasing it