Does the game cheat?

lukterran · 04-28-16, 10:21 AM

When trying to evade destroyer escorts after a successful attack I have come to the conclusion that the game is cheating.

Because as I watch them go through their search pattern and even though I go undetected they are always following my subs path. Even when I change the direction of travel.

Again they aren't detecting my sub and racing at it and depth charging. They are just searching. They can't find me but they are always in the area.

I have been avoiding them by pulsing my engines between 0, 1/3 and 2/3 speed while running silent (to avoid their sound sweat spot in front of them cutting engines when in front of them and moving to 2/3 when all destroyers are facing away from me, in order to gain some distance)

So even when I get about 3k away they move forward into a new search pattern somehow some way even though I was never pinged the destroys keep in the same area near me even though I am moving away. I traveled a large "U" shape that covered a total of 6 miles and any time I would get any kind of distance from the group it would seem they always be following my general area even though they haven't detected my sub.

I figured at first the Destroyers were just following my last known course but they seemed to be ever present even after pulling a (a long) 180 on them in course.

I eventually lost them when I found I was at a favorable distance at about 3k and their boats were all pointing away from my boat and I choose to risk it and throttle up to full speed.

So does the game cheat or was I being unknowingly being detected by the Destroyers? Again they was never any pings. I use really good headphones with the volume at a good level to hear all that kind of noise.

Gibus · 04-28-16, 10:37 AM

Bonjour,

No the game does not cheat.
If you are detected by far is that you are not quite stealthy, or that the wave conditions are too unfavorable (wind 0m / sec., for example).
Use "silent running" and go below thermal layer, this should get better.

lukterran · 04-28-16, 12:56 PM

The conditions were the worst possible weather conditions for a attack run. Middle of the day 0900 clear skies and calm seas. However, I never had the option to go below the thermal layer. My sub would sink at any depth below 150 feet due to "phantom" damage the game seemed to be applying to it, even though no damage was reported. So I was primarily traveling at 140ft depth (which I would assume was deep enough to avoid being spotted by aircraft). Periscopes obviously down position.

I still eventually got away. I just found it very strange that the destroyer search pattern was able to follow relatively close to me throughout my course changes and maintain about a 1k-3k range to my sub when I should have shrugged them off much faster than that without some kind of sound contact being made and them actually detecting my sub again.

I was using the free cam at the time to be able to see what was going on at the surface. The planes and their dive bombing attacks where still following my subs last known course prior to me rigging for silent run. However, the 3 Destroyers maintained an annoying presence, not detecting my sub, but still remaining close enough in the area to stop me from completely escape at speeds below 5kt. It took over 5 hours of game time (and real time; at no compression) to escape.

I was surprised by the efficiency of the pattern they destroyers followed. An expanding and contracting triangular rotating pattern is pretty effective.

Peter Cremer · 04-28-16, 04:35 PM

Maybe they were following an oil leak that you didn't know about?

slipf18 · 04-28-16, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gibus

Bonjour,

No the game does not cheat.
If you are detected by far is that you are not quite stealthy, or that the wave conditions are too unfavorable (wind 0m / sec., for example).
Use "silent running" and go below thermal layer, this should get better.

I am not sure I buy that. On more than one occasion some task force will come along and when it is still 28k+ away I will sink to 150+turn off the engines and go silent. They will not be coming in my direction initially but then after a while they will take a hard turn, come right at me, and start laying charges exactly where I am.

fireftr18 · 04-28-16, 06:44 PM

What year are you in and what mods are you using?

Barkerov · 04-28-16, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lukterran

I have been avoiding them by pulsing my engines between 0, 1/3 and 2/3 speed while running silent (to avoid their sound sweat spot in front of them cutting engines when in front of them and moving to 2/3 when all destroyers are facing away from me, in order to gain some distance)

I think that the use of 2/3 speed in calm seas is what's giving you away.

Crannogman · 04-28-16, 07:10 PM

My understanding is that most people stick to 1-2 knots during silent running. I find that I can get away if I limit myself to one salvo, but I firing a second usually results in the escorts swarming prescisely and sinking me handling rapidly regardless of my speed, depth, etc

Captain Jeff · 04-28-16, 07:26 PM

I run at 2 knots and do my best to present a minimum profile when I'm escaping. It can get a little hairy because I'm going so slow and it takes time to get out of their search pattern, but I have not noticed the destroyers automatically detecting me. It takes a while, but I can get away.

I think if you're presenting a minimum profile then noise is the biggest factor in whether or not you're detected. Oil or fuel leaks would be the next factor. Always check your damage. If you're leaking oil or fuel then you can be detected. If you have machinery damage then you can be making more noise than usual.

To get away: run silent, run deep!!

Sailor Steve · 04-28-16, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lukterran

Because as I watch them go through their search pattern and even though I go undetected they are always following my subs path. Even when I change the direction of travel.

Again they aren't detecting my sub and racing at it and depth charging. They are just searching. They can't find me but they are always in the area.

Yes, that is an old and well-known (to me, anyway) behavior pattern. While I'm not sure I call it cheating I certainly do think it's a bug. Many times I've had them "accidentally" move to my general area, even if they never seem to find me and never attack. Not all the time, but sometimes it seems like magic.

razark · 04-28-16, 09:18 PM

I've experienced those magic destroyers that seem to pinpoint your location as if you were waving banners and letting off fireworks. But I've also had destroyers pass right over me (to the point I'm worried about losing the periscopes) without even noticing.

Sniper297 · 04-28-16, 10:46 PM

Start with basics here, are you actually looking at the damage screen?

Upper left corner of that screen shows the percentage of hull damage, which stays the same even after all the systems have been repaired. Gotta remember the message window is small, so when a bunch of sighting and contact reports come in one right after another any damage reports might have scrolled up before you looked at them, so you have to check that screen. If the hull damage shows a high percentage, your max depth is a lot shallower than it would be with an undamaged hull.

As for the AI cheating, of course it does - for a simple reason, bits and bytes. The same program that keeps track of where your sub is also controls the AI, and it's a lot simpler to code a game where the destroyers search in the general direction of where the game knows you are, instead of trying to write an entire IF/THEN/ELSE on the psychology of different skippers and how they're going to guess or run different search patterns depending on different reports and situations. The thermal layer is also oversimplified, so if you;

1. Wait for the first torpedo to hit
2. Hit J to kick out a decoy
3. Go to ahead flank and head for the bottom.
4. When the "passing thermal layer" message comes, note the depth and go 60 feet deeper than that
5. Ahead slow, creep away in the opposite direction the convoy was originally heading.

#4 is one of those things that everyone who knows it doesn't mention it because they assume everyone else already knows - the BT sensor is on the keel, the depth sensor is on the keel. So if you hear "passing thermal layer" at 160 feet and you stop at 170 feet, most of your sub is still above the layer. If you go down to 220 feet (160 + 60) then the entire sub, including the periscope shears, is below the layer and there's nothing sticking up above it to detect. That's not how thermal layers work in real life, but the game treats it as a kind of virtual surface, if any part of the sub is sticking up above that layer the sonar can "see" it.

Warren Peace · 04-29-16, 03:43 AM

Just because you're not getting pinged doesn't mean you were undetected, especially if you were throttling to 1/3 or 2/3 while those escorts were within 5 nautical miles of you. Submerged, at that speed, their passive sonar heard you, which is why they came looking.

Evasion is about patience, not speed. Get below the thermal layer (someone will tell you when you get to it), and keep your engine RPM well under 100 (which on most boats equates to 2-knots at the most. You can jump into the command room, F2-shortcut, and check the dials).

Don't even think about accelerating higher than 2-3 knots until they are long-gone, as-in barely audible on your own sonar, or attacking.

Crannogman · 04-29-16, 08:23 AM

Probably if your diving ability is so pooched as to be unable to reach the thermal layer, you should RTB for some time in drydock

lukterran · 04-29-16, 10:02 AM

Thanks for all the responses.

I am running a stock version of the game. (No mods at all)

I am checking the correct Damage Screen. No damage.

Lastly, how are you guys seeing your RPMs? All I see on my dials is speed in nautical miles, or the All Stop, 1/3, 2/3 etc....I don't see anywhere that the game gives me a RPMs reading.

04-28-16, 10:21 AM	#1
lukterran Loader Join Date: Apr 2016 Posts: 84 Downloads: 7 Uploads: 0	Does the game cheat? When trying to evade destroyer escorts after a successful attack I have come to the conclusion that the game is cheating. Because as I watch them go through their search pattern and even though I go undetected they are always following my subs path. Even when I change the direction of travel. Again they aren't detecting my sub and racing at it and depth charging. They are just searching. They can't find me but they are always in the area. I have been avoiding them by pulsing my engines between 0, 1/3 and 2/3 speed while running silent (to avoid their sound sweat spot in front of them cutting engines when in front of them and moving to 2/3 when all destroyers are facing away from me, in order to gain some distance) So even when I get about 3k away they move forward into a new search pattern somehow some way even though I was never pinged the destroys keep in the same area near me even though I am moving away. I traveled a large "U" shape that covered a total of 6 miles and any time I would get any kind of distance from the group it would seem they always be following my general area even though they haven't detected my sub. I figured at first the Destroyers were just following my last known course but they seemed to be ever present even after pulling a (a long) 180 on them in course. I eventually lost them when I found I was at a favorable distance at about 3k and their boats were all pointing away from my boat and I choose to risk it and throttle up to full speed. So does the game cheat or was I being unknowingly being detected by the Destroyers? Again they was never any pings. I use really good headphones with the volume at a good level to hear all that kind of noise.

04-28-16, 10:37 AM	#2
Gibus Ensign Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: France Posts: 223 Downloads: 42 Uploads: 0	Bonjour, No the game does not cheat. If you are detected by far is that you are not quite stealthy, or that the wave conditions are too unfavorable (wind 0m / sec., for example). Use "silent running" and go below thermal layer, this should get better. __________________ "Pacific is a big ocean. You don't have to find the enemy if you don't want to." Dick O'Kane

04-28-16, 06:44 PM	#6
fireftr18 Ocean Warrior Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Kentucky Posts: 2,526 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 0	What year are you in and what mods are you using? __________________ Of all the forms of Martial Arts, Karaoke causes the most pain!

04-28-16, 07:10 PM	#8
Crannogman Watch Officer Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Kansas City, Missouri Posts: 343 Downloads: 24 Uploads: 0	My understanding is that most people stick to 1-2 knots during silent running. I find that I can get away if I limit myself to one salvo, but I firing a second usually results in the escorts swarming prescisely and sinking me handling rapidly regardless of my speed, depth, etc __________________ "The sea shall ride over her and she shall live in it like a duck" ~John Ericsson

04-28-16, 07:26 PM	#9
Captain Jeff Seaman Join Date: Nov 2015 Location: Nebraska Posts: 38 Downloads: 13 Uploads: 0	I run at 2 knots and do my best to present a minimum profile when I'm escaping. It can get a little hairy because I'm going so slow and it takes time to get out of their search pattern, but I have not noticed the destroyers automatically detecting me. It takes a while, but I can get away. I think if you're presenting a minimum profile then noise is the biggest factor in whether or not you're detected. Oil or fuel leaks would be the next factor. Always check your damage. If you're leaking oil or fuel then you can be detected. If you have machinery damage then you can be making more noise than usual. To get away: run silent, run deep!! __________________ You're an attack sub. Act like it.

04-28-16, 12:56 PM	#3
lukterran Loader Join Date: Apr 2016 Posts: 84 Downloads: 7 Uploads: 0	The conditions were the worst possible weather conditions for a attack run. Middle of the day 0900 clear skies and calm seas. However, I never had the option to go below the thermal layer. My sub would sink at any depth below 150 feet due to "phantom" damage the game seemed to be applying to it, even though no damage was reported. So I was primarily traveling at 140ft depth (which I would assume was deep enough to avoid being spotted by aircraft). Periscopes obviously down position. I still eventually got away. I just found it very strange that the destroyer search pattern was able to follow relatively close to me throughout my course changes and maintain about a 1k-3k range to my sub when I should have shrugged them off much faster than that without some kind of sound contact being made and them actually detecting my sub again. I was using the free cam at the time to be able to see what was going on at the surface. The planes and their dive bombing attacks where still following my subs last known course prior to me rigging for silent run. However, the 3 Destroyers maintained an annoying presence, not detecting my sub, but still remaining close enough in the area to stop me from completely escape at speeds below 5kt. It took over 5 hours of game time (and real time; at no compression) to escape. I was surprised by the efficiency of the pattern they destroyers followed. An expanding and contracting triangular rotating pattern is pretty effective.

04-28-16, 04:35 PM	#4
Peter Cremer Machinist's Mate Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Usually in the past.... Posts: 121 Downloads: 141 Uploads: 0	Maybe they were following an oil leak that you didn't know about?

04-28-16, 09:18 PM	#11
razark Ocean Warrior Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 2,725 Downloads: 393 Uploads: 12	I've experienced those magic destroyers that seem to pinpoint your location as if you were waving banners and letting off fireworks. But I've also had destroyers pass right over me (to the point I'm worried about losing the periscopes) without even noticing. __________________ "Never ask a World War II history buff for a 'final solution' to your problem!"

04-28-16, 10:46 PM	#12
Sniper297 The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Philadelphia Shipyard Brig Posts: 1,386 Downloads: 160 Uploads: 19	Start with basics here, are you actually looking at the damage screen? Upper left corner of that screen shows the percentage of hull damage, which stays the same even after all the systems have been repaired. Gotta remember the message window is small, so when a bunch of sighting and contact reports come in one right after another any damage reports might have scrolled up before you looked at them, so you have to check that screen. If the hull damage shows a high percentage, your max depth is a lot shallower than it would be with an undamaged hull. As for the AI cheating, of course it does - for a simple reason, bits and bytes. The same program that keeps track of where your sub is also controls the AI, and it's a lot simpler to code a game where the destroyers search in the general direction of where the game knows you are, instead of trying to write an entire IF/THEN/ELSE on the psychology of different skippers and how they're going to guess or run different search patterns depending on different reports and situations. The thermal layer is also oversimplified, so if you; 1. Wait for the first torpedo to hit 2. Hit J to kick out a decoy 3. Go to ahead flank and head for the bottom. 4. When the "passing thermal layer" message comes, note the depth and go 60 feet deeper than that 5. Ahead slow, creep away in the opposite direction the convoy was originally heading. #4 is one of those things that everyone who knows it doesn't mention it because they assume everyone else already knows - the BT sensor is on the keel, the depth sensor is on the keel. So if you hear "passing thermal layer" at 160 feet and you stop at 170 feet, most of your sub is still above the layer. If you go down to 220 feet (160 + 60) then the entire sub, including the periscope shears, is below the layer and there's nothing sticking up above it to detect. That's not how thermal layers work in real life, but the game treats it as a kind of virtual surface, if any part of the sub is sticking up above that layer the sonar can "see" it.

04-29-16, 03:43 AM	#13
Warren Peace Loader Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 89 Downloads: 44 Uploads: 0	Just because you're not getting pinged doesn't mean you were undetected, especially if you were throttling to 1/3 or 2/3 while those escorts were within 5 nautical miles of you. Submerged, at that speed, their passive sonar heard you, which is why they came looking. Evasion is about patience, not speed. Get below the thermal layer (someone will tell you when you get to it), and keep your engine RPM well under 100 (which on most boats equates to 2-knots at the most. You can jump into the command room, F2-shortcut, and check the dials). Don't even think about accelerating higher than 2-3 knots until they are long-gone, as-in barely audible on your own sonar, or attacking. __________________ The only sound that still scares me to this day... The silence when the pinging stops.

04-29-16, 08:23 AM	#14
Crannogman Watch Officer Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Kansas City, Missouri Posts: 343 Downloads: 24 Uploads: 0	Probably if your diving ability is so pooched as to be unable to reach the thermal layer, you should RTB for some time in drydock __________________ "The sea shall ride over her and she shall live in it like a duck" ~John Ericsson

04-29-16, 10:02 AM	#15
lukterran Loader Join Date: Apr 2016 Posts: 84 Downloads: 7 Uploads: 0	Thanks for all the responses. I am running a stock version of the game. (No mods at all) I am checking the correct Damage Screen. No damage. Lastly, how are you guys seeing your RPMs? All I see on my dials is speed in nautical miles, or the All Stop, 1/3, 2/3 etc....I don't see anywhere that the game gives me a RPMs reading.