[WIP] Improved Ship Physics

[ReallyDedPoet]

Nice

[nionios]

Originally Posted by TorpX

Finished v2.4 for TMO.

This is a 'light' version for TMO alone.

So isn't it compatible with OTC?I noticed that they have some common files.

[TorpX]

Someone asked the same question in the other section. Here is the best answer I can give you:

I can't give you a definitive answer. Your mod list looks ok, but you'll have to experiment some. I would suggest putting ISP 2.4 right after TMO. Then, with the mods after, pay attention to what, if anything, is overwritten.

These are the critical files changed by ISP 2.4:

all sub *.sim files >> sub physics
all sub *.cfg files >> engine settings

most ship *.sim files >> ship physics
a few ship *.cfg files >> ship displacements/speeds rec. manual

Scene.dat file >> weather/waves effects
Sim.cfg >> wave effects

also a few changes to special abilities in UPC Data folder.

I don't think most small mods will touch the special abilities area, so that should be ok.

If 1.5_Optical Targeting Correction 031312 for TMO 2.5 changes some of the ships' *.cfg files, I wouldn't be too concerned about that.

However, I consider the *.sim files, the Sim.cfg file, and the Scene.dat file to be critical. I would not use anything that overwrites these files.

Remember, if two (or more) mods change the same file, the one enabled last will prevail. This is where the load order comes in. Ordinarily, large mods are enabled first, then small mods last.

I highlighted the files I consider critical to ISP.

If there is a significant conflict, you may have to try to merge the files involved, or just accept the altered functionality.

[nionios]

OK, thanks.I pefer not to touch anything so i won't intall ISP yet.

[TorpX]

I uploaded the version for TMO and RSRDC.

There were actually fewer folders in the TMO version of RSRDC than the RFB version. lurker added the NDD_Hatsuharu, but that was the only thing I had to work up. There is also the NCVE_ASW, but this can use the NCVE_Taiyo file. RSRDC had the same version of Narwhal files as TMO, so this didn't require changes.

Improved Ship Physics v2.6_TMO_RSRDC

[dom111]

Downloading and testing. Thanks a lot, TorpX, a Merry Christmas to you and all Subsim family

[TorpX]

Well, I've just completed an arduous patrol in the S-39. The weather was absolutely awful. The wave effects were much worse than I experienced in the pre-release tests, so I will be working on a patch to address the issue. When I much worse, I mean I was unable to make any headway on the surface. I wound up diving the boat (which was hard in itself), and proceeding submerged at 3 kn. or so.

There are two things to consider with the weather: First, the effects of wind at a certain level, and second, the frequency of the condition and the frequency of the changes. I doubt that I can really change this, though.

Here is a tabulation of the weather I experienced:

Dec. 2 -clear, wind 5
Dec. 3 -clear, wind 5
Dec. 4 -clear, wind 5
Dec. 5 -clear, wind 5
Dec. 6 -clear, wind 5
Dec. 7 -clear, wind 5
Dec. 8 -clear, wind 5
Dec. 9 -clear, wind 5
Dec. 10 -clear, wind 5
Dec. 11 -clear, wind 5
Dec. 12 -clear, wind 5
Dec. 13 -clear, wind 5
Dec. 14 -clear, wind 5
Dec. 15 -clear, wind 5
Dec. 16 -clear, wind 5
Dec. 17 -clear, wind 5
Dec. 18 -clear, wind 5
Dec. 19 -clear,wind 15
Dec. 20 -clear,wind 15
Dec. 21 -clear/rain,wind 15
Dec. 22 -overcast, hv.rain,wind 15
Dec. 23 -overcast, hv.rain,wind 15
Dec. 24 -overcast, hv.rain,wind 15
Dec. 25 -overcast, hv.rain,wind 15
Dec. 26 -overcast, hv.rain,wind 15
Dec. 27 -overcast, hv.rain,wind 15
Dec. 28 -overcast, hv.rain,wind 15
Dec. 29 -overcast, hv.rain,wind 15
Dec. 30 -overcast, hv.rain,wind 15
Dec. 31 -overcast, hv.rain,wind 15
Jan. 1 - pt. cloudy, wind 15
Jan. 2 - pt. cloudy, wind 15
Jan. 3 - pt. cloudy, wind 15
Jan. 4 - pt. cloudy, wind 6
Jan. 5 - pt. cloudy, wind 6
Jan. 6 - pt. cloudy, wind 10
Jan. 7 - pt. cloudy, wind 10
Jan. 8 - pt. cloudy, wind 9
Jan. 9 - pt. cloudy, wind 15
Jan. 10 - clear, wind 3
Jan. 11 - overcast, wind 15
Jan. 12 - clear, wind 0
Jan. 13 - pt. cloudy, wind 0
Jan. 14 - wind 15

days with mild winds (0 to 5): 20
days with moderate winds (6 to 10): 5
days with strong winds (11 to 15): 19

I noticed that the weather seemed to be "stuck" early on, and then change frequently later. I am wondering how the missions might contribute to this problem.

I am considering the idea where one could have 2 scene.dat files; one for 'typhoon season', and one for the remainder of the year, or something along these lines. Wave effects that are tolerable for short periods, aren't really tolerable for weeks on end, after all.

[TorpX]

I started work on fixing/improving the waves in ISP, today.

First, I ran a mission with 15 m/s wind with ISP, just to see if I was going crazy, or the seas were really that nasty.

S-18 going E for 1 hour at 32x:

1/3, standard, flank
1.7 5.1 4.8 ........nm traveled
2.8 5.1 5.3
2.7 4.2 5.5
3.0 5.0 7.1* ...............*wind changed

0.2 4.5 6.2 ............new mission start
2.0 3.0 4.6
3.4 4.8 4.8
3.0 2.2 1.8

The above number are about what I got in pre-release testing.

going S for 1 hour at 32x:

nil nil 0.5 ..............new start, got 'stuck'
nil 0.6 nil
nil nil 0.2

These last number are about what I experience on my patrol. The boat would more or less, get 'stuck' being batted back and forth between big waves and not getting anywhere.

It seems that the orientation of the waves has a significant effect on the speed you can sustain.

I then made a change to the scene.dat file, lowering the MaxWaveHeight from 650 to 400 and repeated the tests.

Set MaxWaveHeight from 650 to 400.

S-18 heading S for 1 hr. at 32x:

3.2 6.2 6.8
3.1 6.3 6.9
1.1 * 6.2 6.3 ...............* got 'stuck'

heading E

3.8 6.4 6.1
3.8 5.8 5.3
3.7 6.9 6.9

Set MaxWaveHeight to 500

S-18 heading S

3.8 6.1 6.5
4.0 5.9 6.1
4.0 6.1 5.9

heading E

0.1* 3.7 1.7* ...............*got 'stuck'
2.9 4.2 5.3 ...................wind dropped to 14

It is interesting to note that 'flank' speed is about the same speed as 'standard' here.

While the above seems like an improvement, it still has some odd behavior. Tomorrow, I'll try some other things.

[pdiddy]

Following this with interest as am sure others are also!

[TorpX]

Well, I've figured out the general form of the solution.

In simple terms, the problem is a matter of how big and how "nasty" to make the waves in ISP. I consider it essential to have waves that will have a significant operational effect. That is to say, will mechanically slow the subs down, and batter you about. The problem was that I had them a bit too nasty, and my little S-boat often found itself "stuck" and not really able to move (not a desirable situation). So, how to have weather and waves that will be severe at times, but not be an intolerable burden for a patrol?

First, I've changed the MaxWaveHeight and another element so even a S-class can move, albeit slowly, in 15 m/s winds. I tested it going both S and E, since the orientation N/S or E/W made a significant difference before. [The waves have a certain orientation and this can sometime show up in the speed your boat will make. I hadn't thought that it would be that much a factor before, so I missed it in early ISP tests.]

There remains, however, what to do when the game weather gets 'stuck on stupid' and hits you with 15 m/s winds for days (or weeks) on end. AFAIK, the variability of the weather is something that is set in the missions, but I'm not sure what rules the game follows, or how faithfully they are followed. Since it is not desirable to have to slog through 15 m/s winds and waves continuously for one's entire patrol, I am putting together a substitute scene.dat file that has the effects greatly reduced. I still must decide just how much to reduce them. This is not an ideal solution, since it will require some work on the part of the player, but, I feel, all things considered, is the best remedy to be found.

I'll explain the idea fully when I release the patch.

[HertogJan]

Seeing headwinds and side winds will slow you down to a near halt, I wonder if tailwinds will make you move faster.
It doesn't matter if it does or doesn't just wondering.

Wonder if my S-class will be able to handle 15- to 20knts

[TorpX]

So far as your movement is concerned, it doesn't matter what direction the wind comes from. The waves do not change their orientation or direction, nor does the wind have any drag effect on your boat.

If you take an external cam to the side of your boat, and watch for awhile, you will see waves moving toward you at times, and moving the opposite way at others, in the same time frame. The weather model certainly leaves a lot to be desired.

However, with I've made the wave effects such that they will slow you down quite a bit when the weather gets rough. I like this a lot, as it forces you to think seriously about patrol time, speed, fuel reserves, and things like that.

BUT, the wave effects largely disappear, if you go above 32x. I would prefer to have the option of playing at 64x, or even 128x, but the game takes shortcuts above 32x, and your speed rockets upward going from 32x to 64x. It is almost like a sci-fi movie where you are jumping into hyperspace, and are no longer subject to the laws of physics. AFAIK, there is nothing that can be done about this.

[TorpX]

I've uploaded the patch for ISP 2.x HERE.



Basically, it is a matter of using 2 different scene.dat files, so one has a mixture of weather. One file provides the potential for stormy weather, while the other is for more moderate weather.



Improved Ship Physics 2.x Patch


Because of the shortcomings in the way weather is generated in SH4, it can often happen that one will have 15 m/s wind for many days, with no let up. With stock waves, this isn't of great consequence, but with the more formidable waves in ISP, it is like being in a never-ending storm. I found that in a S-class boat, it often happened that I could make no headway at 1/3 speed or even higher, when winds were 15 m/s. This patch is to correct this issues with the ISP 2.x mods.


Included are different versions of the scene.dat file, that have different wave properties, for all the 2.x versions of ISP (both for RFB and TMO). The patch is not JSGME ready, but installation is easy!



Installation for ISP 2.15 (for RFB):

Open up your copy of ISP 2.15 and locate the scene.dat file. Replace this with the one in the 'files for RFB versions' folder. This one will produce 'moderate' waves.

Next, put the 'ISP 2.15_SW_Patch' folder in your mods folder. This is a JSGME- ready mini-mod which has a version of the scene.dat file, which will produce 'severe' waves.



Installation for ISP 2.4/2.6 (for TMO):

Follow the same procedure as above, but use the files in the 'files for TMO versions' folder. The wave mechanics of the RFB and TMO files are the same, but some of the visual elements differ.


The 'moderate' wave versions of the files will produce lower waves than ISP had before. The effects at the higher end of the wind scale 11 to 15 m/s are not as high as before, and are more 'rounded'. Seas will become 'rough', but will never really be 'stormy'.
The 'severe' wave versions have higher waves at the higher end 11+ m/s, and especially at the 13+ m/s zone. Winds in this zone will produce 'stormy' seas. However, the severity has been reduced from earlier levels.

The idea here is that by alternating files the game uses, one can have a sensible variety of weather conditions, even though the game only has a wind range of 0 to 15 m/s, which really isn't adequate.


Use in the Game:

Start your patrol with the changed version of ISP, but without the ISP 2.15_SW_Patch. After every day, roll 2d6, and if the total is 11+, save the game, exit, and enable the ISP 2.15_SW_Patch mod. This means you will now have the potential for stormy weather. When you continue, roll 2d6 every day, and likewise save, exit, and disable the ISP 2.15_SW_Patch on a roll of 11+. If you have the patch enabled, and are in the midst of a storm (15 m/s wind), add +1 to the roll for every consecutive day of 15 m/s winds. This will limit the duration of any storms. In this way, by alternating from one version of scene.dat file to the other, you can get a more sensible variety of weather, in the game.


The following test figures will give an idea of the speed reduction one can expect.

I mainly tested the S-18, as it has the least favorable sea-keeping qualities.

Distance traveled by S-18 in 'moderate' 15 m/s wind (all figures at 32x, in nm)
at 1/3 standard flank
4.5 8.4 9.9 heading E
4.3 8.2 9.0
4.8 8.6 9.6 heading S
4.9 8.4 8.7

S-18 in 'severe' 15 m/s wind
at 1/3 standard flank
3.2 6.1 6.4 heading S
3.8 6.1 7.0
4.0 6.6 6.4
3.4 5.3 5.5 heading E
3.2 5.2 4.7
3.3 6.2 6.2



Tambor class in 'moderate' 15 m/s winds
at 1/3 standard flank
7.4 11.2 11.6 heading E
7.3 11.2 10.4
8.1 13.0 12.7 heading S
8.1 11.8 11.2
Tambor class in 'severe 15 m/s winds
6.3 9.3 9.4 heading E
6.2 9.3 9.3
6.3 9.4 8.7 heading S
6.4 8.2 7.6


These figures are substantially the same as before (in the case of severe weather), but eliminate the tendency of the S-class to “get stuck” in heavy waves. It is interesting to note that there is little, if any, speed advantage of flank speed over standard, in heavy seas.

I realize, that people who play at a very fast pace, will not like this sort of thing, but given the limitations inherent in the game, I feel it is the best option within reach.

- TorpX

[TorpX]

Hertog asked a good question and I made a lengthy reply, so I'll copy it to this thread so in case people were wondering about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HertogJan
TorpX, got yet another question for you.



I've tested IPS with ISP 2.x_SW_Patch for TMO and I noticed the waves are moving at a slower rate, almost like it's in slowmotion?


Is there a reason you slowed the sea movement (waves) down by 'half?'... Tested 2xTC and it feels (at least to me) like its back to a more realistic movement.

Will changing it back break anything?

I used a slower sea speed, because the original (RFB?) seemed too fast. I looked like I was watching a toy boat in a bathtub to me. Keep in mind, the waves and ships are supposed to be of large dimensions.

Of course, you can experiment as much as you want, but I don't really recommend it; I have no idea what effect it will have on the sea-keeping aspects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HertogJan
One question remains, why did you change that setting, does it influence your Mod in any way besides wave speed?

I put in a lot of time fiddling with the waves to get them so they exercise a realistic influence over the boats; meaning they will slow you down when they get rough. Eye-candy considerations were secondary. There are a number of subtle aspects to all that. Suffice it to say here, that there are limits as to what I could accomplish. If the waves are too big, fast or whatever, you can end up with a S-class boat being unable to move in 15 m/s winds - not a desirable situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HertogJan


Anyhow... the storm continued for most of the day and night, luckily for me after some 24h rain and fog lifted but the winds kept banging my sub all the way to Davao which was still 120Nm due North (weather raged for 183Nm in all) as I had seen enough of what this weather is like I wanted to test something. Would Ctrl-N work and do what normally happens... I know it's cheating and I normally don't do this when I am in my patrol zone or in enemy territory but I wanted to see if it did something.

Every time I've tried the 'Ctrl-N' thing, all that happens is the clouds skip a beat, and the weather looks the same. The navigator says the wind is 0 m/s, but the waves are as violent as before. What does it do for you?

The issue of 15 m/s 'storms' (of long duration), is why I came out with the latest patch. (I hope you read the docs, and didn't just jam in into the mods folder?)

***

[TorpX]

DerekB 525 had a problem where his Balao-class sub wouldn't get above 14 kn. at flank speed. This in TMO.

Since it is a technical issue, I'll post my findings here.

I ran a simple mission with RFB and ISP, first with the S-18, then with the Balao. Then I disabled the ISP and repeated with the Balao just to see the difference. The Ef entries with a '*' are for GQ.
[See the attached file below.]



The S-class seemed to reach full speed until the efficiency dropped to around 50% or so. The Balao seemed to require about 85% or so; and suffered badly if the Ef fell below 50 or 60%. It shows that GQ, per se, isn't what is required, but rather a certain level of efficiency. Fatigue is an important factor here, but not the only one. Now and then I saw the Ef jump to 100%, without GQ being in force. It wasn't obvious why, but I'm guessing leadership factors come into play. It isn't clear why such a big difference between the S-class and Balao.

It is interesting to note, that with RFB alone, compartment Ef doesn't matter a wit; the boat can go full speed until the last man falls asleep!

I may have "dumbed down" the engine room crews a bit too much. They seemed ok in tests, but then this sort of thing is hard to test objectively, as every crew starts a mission fresh as a daisy. They only become fatigued over time. My thinking was that it made more sense with you to start with a poor crew, so you would have to build them up some.

I looked into the subs' *.upc files, to check if maybe I messed up the numbers. The numbers were as intended. I believe the theory behind the EffciencyDenominator is that it was set to be equal to the number of men in a shift of that compartment. For the EffciencyDenominatorBS the number is larger, as every man is then on duty. I reduced the value for the Balao by 1, and this gave a significant boost to the Ef in the game.



So, if your engine room crew seems hopelessly inadequate, I would recommend one of these options:

1. Invest in some better/more experienced sailors (they do make a difference now).
2. Disable ISP, go in and change your sub's *.upc file. Reduce the EffciencyDenominator by 1, and save it. Keep an unaltered copy as backup. Re-enable ISP. (I didn't try this while at sea, in mid career.)

In any case, it might be wise to monitor your crew's fatigue and Ef levels, as it clearly has an impact with ISP. (It makes me wonder about the other compartments).