Guess the country: Spain and the struggle of Catalonia for freedom

[Hitman]

Hm. Maybe you Valencians should declare your independence.

Just to clarify, I am in absolute favour of the catalan independence. As valencian, I believe that the best way to live in peace is to have a border with a nice wall between them and us. There is a saying here that goes like: "Good walls make good neighbours"

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Hitman

Just to clarify, I am in absolute favour of the catalan independence. As valencian, I believe that the best way to live in peace is to have a border with a nice wall between them and us. There is a saying here that goes like: "Good walls make good neighbours"

Me thinks that, too, but amongst all them reunited Germans I am the exception when believing in walls... It confuses me that some people criticise that the artificial borderline drawing in the ME should have led to so much instability and conflict because these artifical borders and artificial states ripped apart ethnic groups that belonged together, and forced groups together that did not belong together and find it hard to stand each other. But when the same is done in Europe (Bosnia, Kosovo) and regarding the many regions that seek independence throughout Europe, then the EU and its supporters are absolutely fine with repeating the same mistakes they criticise historic France and Britian for regarding the ME. Its double standards.

[Nikita]

First political prisoners! Spain takes off the mask. Citizens protest throughout Catalonia hitting pans. https://www.dailysabah.com/europe/20...s-to-be-jailed http://catalanmonitor.com/2017/09/22...e-of-sedition/ http://www.elnacional.cat/en/news/pr...94334_102.html

[Hitman]

Political prisoners?

They are in prison for organizing and promoting violence against people, specifically the policemen that were almost lynched the night before the referendum while investigating (Not when confronting "peaceful" voters, mind you).

https://www.elconfidencial.com/espan...oches_1447449/

If they are political prisoners, how come that the visible heads Puigdemont and Junqueras are not in jail also and even before? Let me tell you the answer: Because despite doing illegal things, they have not promoted violence against people, unlike the radicals imprisoned today.

Another lie of the radcal independentism goes down.

[Hitman]

More independentist lies exposed:

https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/17...18_372067.html

[Skybird]

Madrid mulls subjugation of Catalonia via direct governing and suspending autonomy. Which shows what autonomy really is worth. Its dependency and being owned, the fact hidden behind a wall of roses.

Unacceptable in the Europe of the 21st century. Spain has no right to own the Catalonians against their will.

-----

Same happening currently with the Kurds in Iraq, Syria and Turkey. Slave holders at play everywhere.

[ikalugin]

Do you happen to have a regional identity within Germany?

[Hitman]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Madrid mulls subjugation of Catalonia via direct governing and suspending autonomy. Which shows what autonomy really is worth. Its dependency and being owned, the fact hidden behind a wall of roses.

Unacceptable in the Europe of the 21st century. Spain has no right to own the Catalonians against their will.

If you use autonomy to attack the rest of the nation, I guess you can expect a reaction. In any case, the autonomy is not going to be suspended, the action over Cataluña is going to be limited to have new elections in that community, so actually a step towards letting people vote (legally this time).

It surprises me anyway that you talk about catalans being owned, in fact the territory pertains to all spaniards and not just to catalans. Any catalan is free to split from Spain by refusing the spanish nationality and getting a different one, what they can't expect however is to split a piece of spanish soil and take it with themselves.

[Skybird]

Hitman , I wrote a long reply, and then deleted it, it is useless. you imply Spain owes Catalonia and Catalonians are Spaniards by descent. You have history against you there, the timeline can be checked easily on Wikipedia, for example. If the catalonains say No to you Spaniards, then No means No, and the only thing you Spaniards can do is: accept it and try to negotiate terms and rules for good neighbourship, so that the neighboorhood is a calm and friendly one. To just make claim for this people and say the land they are on is yours, is an aggression, and historically not really that true. Check the descent of the Catalonians in the 5th century, the massive influence the Gothic law code hadon the peninsula until the 11th century, and the meaning and importance of the forming of Aragon in the mid and late medieval, its meaning for the mediterran region. Then check the Franconian-Spanish war, the war of the Spanish succession, and the era Franco. If then you still tell me that your people, the Spaniards, have claim for the the Catalonians and they are you, then you live in an alternative reality then the one my internet is coming from. Genetically, Catalonains are - now mixed - Visogoths, not Iberians. However, later obviously a mixing of blood between both people took place, but still: to claim Catalonians are Iberians, is wrong. Culturally, and ethnic-genetically as well. Thats why you have a shioft of hair colour on the Spanish peninsula, from Portugal int he West to the Eastern Medieval coast. The more you move to the East, the greater your chance to find not just the tpyical dark/black hair, but lighter hair coklours as well, brighter skin teints as well. Its not jumping into the eye, but a countable fact.

( We had the same in Germany as well, once, before the mass migration: the more Eastward you travelled, the higher the rate of dark eyes and dark hair you saw, combined with a rise in second names whose endings give away their original slawic hertitage: Kowalski, Kryzandowsi, etc.

No, I have not turned into an expert for Spanish history over night. But timelines and summaries and chapters are avialable on the web, easily. And yes, indeed I have read about this issue repatedly in the past three weeks. The era of the Corona de Aragon (for all others reading this thread: a union between Castilia and Catalonia and then many other provinces and shires on the peninsula and the Mediterranean islands, it reached as far as into Geece). I somehow find it most fascinating. Maybe I will even get a full book about just this. Three weeks ago I did not even know that such a kingdom even existed.

Note: I would claim the same right to separate for any of the German federal states and reigonal poöulations, fi that were what they really want. Self-empowerment to make claim for owning a people or region against its will, I do not accept as legal items of law codes, they are nil and void from the one ton they got written down. I would grant the same right to the Irish, the Scots, the Walisians, the Basques, and who else there is in Eurpope seeking independence (I recall the EU lists over 60 according regional conflicts currently). No state and no government has the right to impose its rule over the people that refuses wanting to be governed by this state. If the state does not take this No as a No and imposes its rule by force, this state is a tyrant, a conqueror, an agressor, a villain. Simply this. And that is true for any state there is, not just Spain, to have this clearly said.

[Hitman]

No, I have not turned into an expert for Spanish history over night

You certainly haven't, considering what you posted above.

Corona de Aragon (for all others reading this thread: a union between Castilia and Catalonia and then many other provinces and shires on the peninsula and the Mediterranean islands, it reached as far as into Geece)

Wrong on all counts.

1) Aragon was an independent kingdom, actually in war with Castilia for a big part of the middle ages while both were advancing towards the south, defeating the moors (And sometimes forging alliances with them to fight the other christian kingdoms). I can actually trace my family back to one ancestor who died in one of those wars, in the 14th century, so I know what I'm talking about.

2) A union between King Fernando of Aragon and Queen Elizabeth of Castilia in the 15th century was the foundation of Spain (Not really yet, it was actually with their grandson Charles I, which you germans know as Charles V of the Sacred roman german Empire, from the Habsburg family), which you seem to be mixing with Aragon itself.

3) Aragon was a kingdom whose existance at some point became critical when his king died with no descendants and his brother Ramiro II had to abandon his life as monk to asume the crown and provide descendancy. He only had a daughter, Petronila, and he married her to Count Berenguer IV of Barcelona (This was the catalan guy) who did not rule over what is today Catalonia, but over a part of it that had been formerly vasail provinces of the Carolingian french kings. Berenguer was no longer vasail of anybody, but neither was he a king, and thus he was dying to get such rank recognized, for what he accepted to marry Petronila according to the customs of Aragon in 1137. As such, he swore the aragonese laws and was incorporated to the aragonese kings family, instead of the opposite (Petronila to his family) which was the usual back then. Their descendants always ruled as kings of Aragon, and never of Catalonia itself, for many reasons, the main being that catalonia did not exist as such. The collection of shires and provinces where people spoke a similar language was what you call now Catalonia, and it was in fact under jurisdiction of different counts, therefore f.e. the Earldoms of Rosellón and Ampurias were not included until 1171 and 1325, a time when The Earldom of Barcelona was already included in the Crown of Aragon. The son of Berenguer and Petronila became king Alfonso II of Aragon, and Count of Barcelona, never king of Catalonia or a inexistant catalano-aragonese Crown, from which there is absolutely no reference to anywhere.

4) "many other provinces and shires on the peninsula and the Mediterranean islands" is an understatement when you consider the Kingdom of Valencia, fully independent from Aragon (And of course from the earldom of Barcelona), a kingdom that was so rich and advanced that it had its own golden century of literature in valencian language well before the catalans had even a standard for their own variant of language. Of course, the modern pancatalanism has hurried to incorporate such wealth of culture claiming it's their own one, which is absolutely false as all writers were valencian and stated that they wrote in valencian, not in catalan (Back then catalan and valencian were different dialects of the same language originated from the occitane variant spoken in the northeast part of Iberian). Modern pancatalanism tries to project the idea of Aragon being essentially a catalan kingdom and that is false.

Maybe I will even get a full book about just this. Three weeks ago I did not even know that such a kingdom even existed.

I can make some recommendations if you want, so that you can avoid intoxication (And I'm talking about foreign authors, not spanish ones)

No state and no government has the right to impose its rule over the people that refuses wanting to be governed by this state. If the state does not take this No as a No and imposes its rule by force, this state is a tyrant, a conqueror, an agressor, a villain.

What people? What are your requirements to be able to refuse to be governed by a state? What is your criteria? Can the 50% of catalans who want to stay in Spain retain 50% of catalan territory and not be forced to be ruled by an independent catalan authority they refuse? Can I declare myself independent from Spain and have my own state and flag?

Thats why you have a shioft of hair colour on the Spanish peninsula, from Portugal int he West to the Eastern Medieval coast. The more you move to the East, the greater your chance to find not just the tpyical dark/black hair, but lighter hair coklours as well, brighter skin teints as well. Its not jumping into the eye, but a countable fact.

That is true, I am myself blond and with blue eyes as well as fair skinned. My mother's family name is of german ascendancy (In remote times it was spoken "Bertwhald")

To just make claim for this people and say the land they are on is yours, is an aggression, and historically not really that true

Careful with that, if you claim history then you have to accept ALL the history and not only just one part. Over history the territory that now is the Catalan community was incorporated to other entities, first the aragonese and french Crowns, later the spanish and french Crowns, and not always through conquest as you already know, but many times willingly. If you claim history, you have to accept everything that happened on it and not be selective.

But in any case, in 1978 the spanish Constitution was adopted with a big majority in favour in Catalonia, actually at 90% it had more votes than in other parts of Spain.

[mapuc]

What will happen or what will the outcome be if the Government in Madrid use the article 155 in the Spanish law ?

I'm thinking about the ordinary people in Catalonia and the people living there. Will there be any change for them ?

I'm also thinking about those serving the military, but who's heart belongs to Catalonia. Will some of the generals or officers break off from Madrid and (forgot the word, when a soldier hold the flag of the country and say some word and maybe having his/her other hand on the heart) ?

Markus

[Hitman]

What will happen or what will the outcome be if the Government in Madrid use the article 155 in the Spanish law ?

Article 155 is copied from the german federal constitution (The whole spanish one was heavily inspired by that one) and allows to give direct orders to the administration if the local government doesn't act according to the general interest. The spanish government in agreement with the opposition is as of now willing to use it only for: 1) Order the banks where the catalan government has accounts for bills and salaries to be paid instead of paralyzing the economy and administration, and 2) Call the catalans for elections to their parliament.

the ordinary people in Catalonia and the people living there. Will there be any change for them ?

Unlike the special situations where constitutional rights are suspended (Alarm, exception and war), the use of the 155 just implies giving direct orders from Madrid to the catalan administration to guarantee that it continues working as intended. The citizens retain all their rights and freedoms as ordinary and unlike the separatist propaganda, the autonomy is not suspended (Unlike what the UK did with NI some years ago) but continues in all aspects, with the only exception of the particular areas where the catalan government is overriden.

I'm also thinking about those serving the military, but who's heart belongs to Catalonia. Will some of the generals or officers break off from Madrid and (forgot the word, when a soldier hold the flag of the country and say some word and maybe having his/her other hand on the heart) ?

I don't think there is any such case. The military are quite homogeneous and selection and promotion has been watched closely after the failed coup of 1982. In any case, there is absolutely no talk whatsoever to call the army for anything. The affair is viewed in Spain and in the EU as an internal matter, which the Police at most has to enforce if needed.

I should also mention that, according to many analists here, there is no eventual will in the catalan government to push for real independence (Aside from the radical ones in the CUP), but instead to force a big constitutional reform that basically changes the whole fiscal and contributing system (Something I personally support BTW).

[Skybird]

Hitman, I follow the available general summaries on Spanish history here. For the post above, I used both german and English wikipedia, which both have two totally different board of editors. Their summaries are brief, but more or less identical, at least not mutually contradicting. And I have no personal call to make in all this. Its just about a principle. I do not accept when it when any state or people claim that it has the right to enforce its dominance over another people that does not want to be governed by them. This is non-negotiable a principle for me, no matter what people it is about. The claim you make so naturally for Catalonia, I cannot see founded in history at all, not this easily and all-embracing as you imply. I see a quite clear ethnic and cultural difference between Catalonians and Iberian Spaniards, rooting back roughly one and a half millenia.

Also, now saying this for the third time, I do not try to tell any side what the Catalonians want. I am not certain the catalonians even know that for themselves, why should I know it then. They should have elections for a new parliament and vote in or out representatives who are for or against independence. And this new parliament then should immediately, as its first act, make it clear what Catalonia wants. I said this on this board already one day before Rajoy came up with his demand for elections (in fact it surprised me that he wants elections, too, this can easily backfire against him). What is needed is clearness about what the Catalonians indeed want. A majority for or against secession. But once that has become clear, both sides have to accept - and not fight against - the outcome completely and unconditionally. If the catalonains say "we stay", so be it, I'm fine with it. When they say "we leave", I'm fone with it as well, but Madrid has to accept it, without any conditions, period.

What the constitution says to deny them the right to make this decision, on a most profound level must be considered nil and void. It simply shall not matter. A constitution claiming the right for Germany to conquer Poland once again and win back the lost eastgerman territories, would be nil and void in my eyes. A constitution saying that no people has the right to leave the national union if it wants that, is nil and void in my eyes. Just that you write yourself a law that suites your likes and needs, does not make it already just and ethically right. States can - and all to often do - act barbarically, criminally, corrupt, on the grounds of laws they have written themselves to legalise their overstepping of most profound ethical principles. You living i the land of Franco and me living in the land of Hitler should know that all too well. The police terror took place on the grounds of laws and the constitutions of that time. Was it therefore okay? The Nuremberg trials found a very clear answer to that question and the question whether a given order can justify obeying commands that lead to inhumane actions, and it was not a positive one.

Nobody has the right to own somebody else against his will. This is what it comes down to. It does not matter whether it is a claim raised in political or historical or religious context, it just does not matter, never, and it never shall matter for sure. Just this.

You either comply with this basic principle, or you don't. A compromise is not possible - its either the one or the other you chose, never a bit of both.

[Hitman]

I do not accept when it when any state or people claim that it has the right to enforce its dominance over another people that does not want to be governed by them. This is non-negotiable a principle for me, no matter what people it is about.

Then why are you supporting here that a majority of catalans are entitled to own the minority and drag them to a new independent state that will rule over them? Don't you really see the contradiction in what you are saying?

I know you don't side with independentists or unionists, but you suppport the idea that a votation in that specific community (Or any other bond by your criteria of culture, genetics, history, etc) is enough to make such decission - which necessary leads to the minority being owned against their will. Your reasoning has therefore a fundamental flaw, I'm afraid. There is always someone who will be owned when a votation between contradictory options is made in a group of persons.

I see a quite clear ethnic and cultural difference between Catalonians and Iberian Spaniards, rooting back roughly one and a half millenia.

You should update your sources because 60,3% of the current catalan population is the result of inmigration during just the last century.

https://elpais.com/diario/1999/10/02...52_850215.html

Furthermore, the catalan concept of nationalism is not based on ethnic or genetic treats, but just on the idea of living in Catalonia and speaking catalan (The latter the most important and that explains their intention to Anschluss Valencia and Baleares). Which is why there are so many second generation inmigrants joining the crowd of separatism thanks to adoctrination in schools, despite having nothing to do genetically with the original catalans.

The concept was pushed already by Jordi Pujol by heavily favouring the inmigration of muslims because he believed that they would be easier to turn into catalan speakers than latinamericans or people from other spanish regions:

https://gaceta.es/espana/pujol-2008-...20170902-1019/

As a result, catalonia is the most islamized community in the whole Spain:

https://gaceta.es/opinion/islam-cataluna-20170820-1723/

So to sum-up, even the very own catalan separatists don't pretend that they are as of today a homogeneous and clear ethnically differentiated society. Their claim to independence has therefore no different foundation than if me and me and some friends would want to become independent from Spain just because we all are blue-eyed and share personal culture and set of ethic principles.

What the constitution says to deny them the right to make this decision, on a most profound level must be considered nil and void. It simply shall not matter. A constitution claiming the right for Germany to conquer Poland once again and win back the lost eastgerman territories, would be nil and void in my eyes. A constitution saying that no people has the right to leave the national union if it wants that, is nil and void in my eyes. Just that you write yourself a law that suites your likes and needs, does not make it already just and ethically right. States can - and all to often do - act barbarically, criminally, corrupt, on the grounds of laws they have written themselves to legalise their overstepping of most profound ethical principles. You living i the land of Franco and me living in the land of Hitler should know that all too well. The police terror took place on the grounds of laws and the constitutions of that time. Was it therefore okay? The Nuremberg trials found a very clear answer to that question and the question whether a given order can justify obeying commands that lead to inhumane actions, and it was not a positive one.

Your votation of independence doesn't either guarantee the decission is right instead of barbaric, criminal and corrupt. In fact, there is way less control over people's subjetivity in a secret vote than over a law debated and made public. Following your example, just because a referendum resulted in a 90% of catalans in favour of waging war against Valencia to consumate an Anschluss that would not be okay. A referendum amongst catalans is thus not necessarily the correct solution.

[Skybird]

Hitman, this becomes ridiculous now, you are twisting things in a way that I am not willing to spend more time on, and you also use double standards, complaining about Catalonians by majority forcing the minority and non-Catalonains to follow (well, the alternatives would be to throw dice, flip a coin or have a god sentence by duel between two fighters), but not caring when big Spain does the same with regard to Catalonia. The difference is that the Catalonians have very valid reasons, imo, to claim the place it is abiout as their place, while Spain as national entity has very much less reason to claim it as its own. They are a coherent ethnic and cultural sub group, the total population of the peninsula "Spain" is not that. If the population in this locap region wants to walk alone form now on, then that is what they want to do from now on. Period.

The issue between you Valencians and them I do not comment on, I simply know nothing about it.

If they would have elections there, and form a parliament that by majority would decide for independence - would you let them go peacefully , or would you say No and impose your will by force over a people that does not want you to have a say over them? Simple question for yourself, the answer is Yes or No, no in between.

I could also ask if we Westphalians would tell you Valencians what you have to do and that you owe us paying tribute, would you accept it? That simple it is what it all comes down to and when one stops making it complicated.

Let them go peacefully, if that is what they find they want, and win good neighbours with intact relations, open borders and proven business ties. Force them to serve you against their will and to their disadvantage, and win submitted, embittered, unloyal vasalls that may one day pull their knifes against you, while becoming an evil oppressor and villain yourself. Whats the better fundament to form a future on? To me, the answer is crystal clear. Every action has reaction and what force you inflict, inevitably returns.

I'm out of here.