Guess the country: Spain and the struggle of Catalonia for freedom

[Nikita]

Originally Posted by Skybird

You cannot give freedom to man. You can only withhold freedom from man, by the use of force. Thats why you should never accept to be given freedom, because that implies that the other has ever had a right to own you, and you owed to bow your knee to him. You pick your freedom yourself, and by that take what was rightfully yours from all beginning on. Nothing speaks against a voluntary union of partners. But if one partner says that it is over, then there is nothing the other can rightfully do about it.

Its really is revealing how suspiciously silent EU leaders are.

Nikita, I take it that you are Catalunyan. In your view, is the region economically strong enough to survive by itself, or do your people count on the EU paying? I read your unem,ployment rate is still three times as high as before 2007 and higher than in Spain, and that your debts are amongst the highest debt burdens in the EU.

The Catalan debt is provoked by the voracity of Spanish revenue. An example: Spain, in fact, owes economic transfers to Catalonia. Because of this, the Catalan government must ask the Spanish government for money to pay its expenses, and Spain grants them with interest. The Catalan people have to pay with interest the own money that Spain owes to Catalonia! Many economists have said that Catalonia would be a net contributor in the EU. The problem would not be Catalonia, but Spain. That's the reason they will not let us leave and react with such ferocity. It's like the pimp who wants to continue living at the expense of his whore. And saying that Spain helps Catalonia is a lie. If you give me 100 dollars and I return you 70, I'm not helping you. I'm robbing you.

[Nikita]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

Oh and according to the title its a 'struggle for freedom'. What exactly is the oppression they are facing and what would change if they got their way?

In what language were you teached in school? In the language of your parents? Congratulations, you live in a free country.

But this is not the case of many Catalans, who during the dictatorship of Franco were prohibited the teaching of our language. We could not even write our name in Catalan, which was changed into Spanish, nor write a simple headstone in our language to honor our dead.

During the badly called political transition the Catalan government reintroduced teaching in Catalan in schools. This provoked almost from the outset the rejection of Spain, which has always manifested an unhealthy animosity towards our language and continues nowadays.


Many Spaniards (fortunately not all, who are also good people in Spain) call us pejoratively "polacos" (Poles) simply because we speak Catalan. But we know how to laugh at ourselves: we have a humor program on the Catalonian television called "Polònia" (Poland). This small example can give you an idea of what political thinking has historically been Spain towards Catalonia.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Nikita

The Catalan debt is provoked by the voracity of Spanish revenue. An example: Spain, in fact, owes economic transfers to Catalonia. Because of this, the Catalan government must ask the Spanish government for money to pay its expenses, and Spain grants them with interest. The Catalan people have to pay with interest the own money that Spain owes to Catalonia! Many economists have said that Catalonia would be a net contributor in the EU. The problem would not be Catalonia, but Spain. That's the reason they will not let us leave and react with such ferocity. It's like the pimp who wants to continue living at the expense of his whore. And saying that Spain helps Catalonia is a lie. If you give me 100 dollars and I return you 70, I'm not helping you. I'm robbing you.

Yes, thank you, that is pretty much like i believed to have understood the financial mess between Spain and Catalonia. You just have confirmed the way I understood it. If things indeed are likme this, the Catalonian anger to me appears pretty much to be understandable and justified. It may not be of comfort to you guys, but Germany is in a similiar ppositoin ofbei gn abused by the rest of the EU, with these dman Target-2 saldi by which the ECB by now owes us 800 billion Euro that the Bundesbank spent on behalf of other central banks. We will never see that money back. I know how pissed I feel by that, and so can understand that you people must feel pissed by Madrid as well.

These internatiuonal bakj, money and busienss netwporks and inmteractions are a kraken's labyrinth, and it seems to me the whole idea of it is to plunder the others while grinning in their faces. The whole concept of globalization at least does as much bad and evil as it does some good for some. To me there seem to be far more loosers than winners. But the few winners make enormous gains and accumulate enormous wealth in fewer and fewer hands. Thanks to globalization.

Of course, government propaganda tells us exactly the opposite, no matter the names and parties in govenrment.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Nikita

In what language were you teached in school? In the language of your parents? Congratulations, you live in a free country.

But this is not the case of many Catalans, who during the dictatorship of Franco were prohibited the teaching of our language. We could not even write our name in Catalan, which was changed into Spanish, nor write a simple headstone in our language to honor our dead.

During the badly called political transition the Catalan government reintroduced teaching in Catalan in schools. This provoked almost from the outset the rejection of Spain, which has always manifested an unhealthy animosity towards our language and continues nowadays.

But I read just yesterday that you have three official languages in Catalonia: Spanish, Catalonian, and Aranese (?), and that Catalonian language is allowed and speak and used publicly at will by the people? Also, that yoiu have quite some far-reaching autonomy rights already, your own police, and self-administration on many - though not all - levels. Also, that it is like this, or comparable to this, in the other autonomous regions of Galicia, Navarra and Basque territory. How is it then, what are these region's actual status?

???

And maybe not reaching as far back as to Franco. If I would always reach back as far as to Hitler, then I would be unable to see that Jews again do live in Germany and that Germany today is not the Third Reich of the past. I mean I expect the present Spain to be a little bit different than that Spain of Franco's reign, or not? Did four and half decades make no difference? I actually have quite a positive image of Spain today. But then, I was never there (not counting a hunting railtrip from France to the street of Gibraltar over 25 years ago to take a ferry to Marocco, it was all an incredible non-stop hurry and I did not really leave the train....). My father's orchestra once was guest at some Barcelona festival in the late 80s, he was plenty much mightily impressed by city, people, friendly manners and the order everywhere.

[Nikita]

It is a pity that a country like Spain that has had great names in the arts has historically suffered from mediocre and corrupt politicians

[Nikita]

Originally Posted by Skybird

But I read just yesterday that you have three official languages in Catalonia: Spanish, Catalonian, and Aranese (?), and that Catalonian language is allowed and speak and used publicly at will by the people? Also, that yoiu have quite some far-reaching autonomy rights already, your own police, and self-administration on many - though not all - levels. Also, that it is like this, or comparable to this, in the other autonomous regions of Galicia, Navarra and Basque territory. How is it then, what are these region's actual status?

???

And maybe not reaching as far back as to Franco. If I would always reach back as far as to Hitler, then I would be unable to see that Jews again do live in Germany and that Germany today is not the Third Reich of the past. I mean I expect the present Spain to be a little bit different than that Spain of Franco's reign, or not? Did four and half decades make no difference? I actually have quite a positive image of Spain today. But then, I was never there (not counting a hunting railtrip from France to the street of Gibraltar over 25 years ago to take a ferry to Marocco, it was all an incredible non-stop hurry and I did not really leave the train....). My father's orchestra once was guest at some Barcelona festival in the late 80s, he was plenty much mightily impressed by city, people, friendly manners and the order everywhere.

We do not have to go back to such distant times. Teaching in Catalan was allowed in the 1980s. Yes, the Aranese language is promoted and protected by the Catalan Government. It comes from the Occitan language. Like Catalan, his teaching was also prohibited. Related to our own Police, Catalans are proud of them this days. Spanish Government wanted to act as repressive police, but instead they defended the citizens. Some of them were also assaulted by the Spanish police. Now the Madrid press calls for the removal of the Chief of the Mossos (Catalan police), Major Trapero. At the beginning of the crisis they wanted to replace it by a Falangist (The Falange is the blue shirts party, similar in concept to the SA of Germany in the 1930s, but with the difference that they have reached the 21st century. In their early days, they helped Hitler to invade the USSR forming part of the Blue Division (División Azul). Its political ideology has not changed since then. The autonomous regions have different levels of autonomy. The best are Euskadi (Basque territory) and Navarra. In this territories they collect their own taxes and then pay Spain its share, after covering their own needs. In Catalonia is different: first we pay Madrid and we must wait until they pay us what they owe us, which usually does not happen. All attempts to achieve an agreement such as that of the Basques have been systematically rejected. I'm glad you liked Spain. It is perfect for anyone who is not Catalan. Best regards

[Nikita]

Catalonia begins a general strike. Several cut roads.

[Nikita]

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/02/w...T.nav=top-news

[Eichhörnchen]

How did you get to change the title of this thread? I can never manage to do that...

[Nikita]

Originally Posted by Eichhörnchen

How did you get to change the title of this thread? I can never manage to do that...

Ha, ha...! Not me. Neal changed the title to reflect better the subject. Later I asked Neal to modify the new title and he supported my petition. This remind me I forgot to thank you, Neal!

[Nikita]

For those of you who understand Spanish, the statements of Hristo Stoichkov, former star player of FC Barcelona and Bulgaria Team, in Univision (Mexico), on the vice president of the Spanish Government. http://www.univision.com/deportes/fu...de-mundo-video

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Eichhörnchen

How did you get to change the title of this thread? I can never manage to do that...

[Nikita]

Here is my people. We fight this way. Ramblas of Barcelona. Don't worry. No violence, no blood.

[Nikita]

Video you have just seen was yesterday at Liceu. Workers and Choir singing the Va, pensiero of the Nabucco of Verdi. It is the heart of the Hebrew slaves and it became a hymn of Italian patriotism fighting for independence.

[Nikita]

And now, a bit of humor. The solution for Catalonia in just 5 days ... On October 1 we voted ... October 2 declares independence ... On day 3 we declare war on Andorra ... On October 4th, we surrender and therefore we have lost the war ... and we are annexed to Andorra ... On October 5th, Catalonia is a fiscal paradise and Andorra has a beach ... From here nothing can go wrong ... sugar, whiskey and tobacco at a good price ...