Ugh.

Sniper297 · 12-13-14, 12:06 AM

Still playing with trying to get my idea of balance into this game;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_cruiser_Naka

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_cruiser_Kuma

Nearly identical light cruisers from the same era. Both of these light cruisers have the same armor, 30CM, but the Kuma has 400 hit points, Naka has 2160. Fuso has 800 hit points, unless someone knows a reason why the Naka has more hit points than a battleship I'm going to assume that's an error and correct it.

TorpX · 12-13-14, 01:01 AM

Yes, I stumbled upon that when I was doing ISP.

And yes, I figure it must be a typo. Either that, or someone was a big fan of the Naka-class.

torpedobait · 12-13-14, 09:34 AM

Can you point an amateur to the directory where I could find those hit points? Thanks!

TorpX · 12-13-14, 06:26 PM

In the Sea folder, the folders for the individual ships have *.zon files. You need S3d to open these. They have the hit point for the hulls of the ships. However, there are a multitude of defined zones within these ships, and the hit points and data for those are in a file zones.cfg, located elsewhere.

A ship might have 10,000 pts. for the hull, but only 50 or 100 for some of the floodable zones, and so still sink easily. Thus the matter is fairly complicated. The subs and merchants in RFB 2.0 are setup this way.

Sniper297 · 12-13-14, 07:42 PM

Specifically;

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom//dow...o=file&id=4489

Like most other utilities you browse in a windows explorer type interface to \WhereverYouGotIt\Silent Hunter 4 Wolves of the Pacific\Data\Sea\NCA_Maya\NCA_Maya.zon then start poking around to see what's what. In the Maya example down at the bottom under 32: CollisionableObject is 33: CollisionableObject (no idea why they do it that way) with a bunch of changeable values;

ArmorLevel = 60
Hit_Points = 500
CrashDepth = 300
CrashSpeed = 0.5
Rebound = 0.45

What exactly rebound is for is a mystery, supposedly physics governing how it bounces off something, but every ship has the exact same value. In a sub CrashDepth is the maximum depth an undamaged sub can submerge to without getting damage, below that depth it will start losing X hit points per second, X being the CrashSpeed value. If it works the same way with surface ships this heavy cruiser could sink to a depth of 990 feet with no problem, below 990 feet it would start losing half a hit point per second.

Which obviously makes zero sense since a surface ship 1000 feet deep is already sunk so what's the point. I experimented with reducing the CrashDepth for assorted surface ships to 3 or 5 or whatever, but then they start breaking up and sinking due to wave action in heavy weather, so that was a dead end. You can, however, reduce the Armor to 10 and hit points to 50 in order to sink a Maya with the deck gun, or whatever kind of tweaking - sorry, can't resist - WHATEVER FLOATS YOUR BOAT!

I love puns.

Reason I used Maya as an example is last night, in a career I hit a Maya with 3 fish, which left it half submerged and making the screeching groaning breaking up collapsing bulkhead noises. Which went on and on and on with no further apparent damage, so I set up a test mission to see if I could fix that problem - and in the test mission I can't duplicate it, because the same unmodified Maya that takes 2 to 4 torpedoes to sink in a career will blow up with one torpedo in a single mission.

If a ship has the entire main deck underwater and is howling and screaming with collapsing bulkheads and tortured metal noises, it OUGHT to SINK, but trying to get there with no reliable way to test it is like trying to get milk from a male ostrich.

Sniper297 · 12-13-14, 08:35 PM

Reloaded the save game, fired one more fish, making four - it missed. Whiskey Tango Fox, this thing;

Is dead in the water and by all that's holy should be sunk, yet the TDC claims it's going 8 knots.

Finally got disgusted, blew tanks and finished it off with 3 shots from the deck gun.

In real life I could have sailed off and left it, if it didn't sink by itself one of the IJN destroyers would have finished it off (after removing the picture of the Emperor and possibly a few crewmen) since what's left wouldn't be worth towing home for repairs. One thing I liked about Microprose Silent Service series was you got credit for damaging ships that didn't sink, how Ubisoft could have missed that bit of realism is a mystery.

TorpX · 12-13-14, 10:05 PM

I know the rebound coefficient is for the impulse and resistance in collisions. I don't think it has any utility beyond that. I played with it a little to see if it affected sea-keeping, but no dice.

As far as the crash depth is concerned, I didn't see much value in that either. I tried using a very high value to prevent ships from sinking in heavy seas. I couldn't see any difference. Possibly, it is the depth at which the ships go 'boom', after they sink. It doesn't seem to be terribly useful.

merc4ulfate · 12-13-14, 11:04 PM

CrashDepth = 300 In surface ships this is the depth at which the ship will disappear from the screen if your following it with a camera.

CrashSpeed = 0.5 In surface ships this is the speed that the vessel will sink to the bottom once underwater.

Rebound = 0.45 In surface ships this is the speed or force that a ship will bounce off another vessel or dock. This is also the setting for how much it will bounce off the ocean floor provided it has not past it's crashdepth.

torpedobait · 12-14-14, 07:46 AM

Thanks for all the info, Captains. I think I'll leave well enough alone, as the work required exceeds my interest in accuracy.

I can offer this about the Maya and all IJN heavy and most light cruisers - one torpedo placed under the 2nd forward turret tends to explode the magazine taking the whole ship in a series of massive explosions. I have observed the same effect with a hit on the Takao under the stern turret.

Thanks again for your information and efforts.

Sniper297 · 12-27-14, 10:10 PM

Alright, debunking one theory;

CrashDepth = 300 In surface ships this is the depth at which the ship will disappear from the screen if your following it with a camera.

CrashSpeed = 0.5 In surface ships this is the speed that the vessel will sink to the bottom once underwater.

Wrong. Set up a test with a FUSO in 1500 feet of water, edited the ZON file for 30 instead of 300. Followed FUSO all the way to the bottom, no disappearing. Reset for crash depth 3, hit FUSO with a single torpedo set for 5 foot depth on the very stern - one hit, no serious damage, but about 15 minutes later (15 minutes = 900 seconds times 0.5 hit points per second = 450 hit points) she rolled over and sank.

Further, in heavy seas FUSO sinks just from wave action in about 55 minutes with crash depth set at 3. So that theory is flat wrong, has nothing to do with visual tracking or speed to the bottom, like the subs it affects CRUSH damage (gotta remember this was translated from another language probably by someone who was under the mistaken illusion that he understood English) in hit points per second when something (keel depth in subs, who knows what in surface ships) is below the specified depth.

The numbers for crash speed are probably accurate, but the depth is who knows what - furlongs per fortnight or something other than meters, whatever it is reducing the number from 300 makes surface ships easier to sink. I've seen several irritating instances similar to the MAYA class cruiser in the previous pictures, half sunk and making those creaking groaning screeching collapsing bulkhead breaking up noises, but near as I can tell it's not relevant to the "crash" speed or depth since it will go on for hours with no apparent change in the state of damage or depth of sinking. The key is someplace in those values, the question is 300 inches feet centimeters furlongs or rupees. Whatever it is appears to be unfinished programming, at the time the game was released they just cranked all ships except the subs to impossible numbers rather than spending time trying to tweak the sinking effects.

TorpX · 12-27-14, 11:47 PM

Nice work.

Quote:

The numbers for crash speed are probably accurate, but the depth is who knows what - furlongs per fortnight or something other than meters, whatever

I tried setting the crash depth above 300 to get ships to stop sinking in heavy seas, to no avail. The various zones might have their own crash depths, though. Also, I don't know if the crash depth is related to the bottom, top, or middle of the zone.

I think your theory, about them taking shortcuts on the model, is on target.

ETR3(SS) · 12-28-14, 12:22 AM

As you've discovered crash does equal crush, with the exception of the units cfg file i.e. NSS_Balao.cfg, where crash depth equals the depth to proceed to for a crash dive.

Now in so far as the units of measure for crush depth, that is measured in meters. Keep in mind this was developed in Europe where metric is the standard.

Sniper297 · 12-28-14, 02:27 AM

I originally assumed meters, but when I started fiddlefaddling with it I found that 5 meters = 16.5 feet didn't seem to work, either that or I was using the wrong baseline. Found the old thread;

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=212049

Which I eventually ran out of mojo and quit trying.

12-13-14, 12:06 AM	#1
Sniper297 The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Philadelphia Shipyard Brig Posts: 1,386 Downloads: 160 Uploads: 19	Ugh. Still playing with trying to get my idea of balance into this game; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_cruiser_Naka http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_cruiser_Kuma Nearly identical light cruisers from the same era. Both of these light cruisers have the same armor, 30CM, but the Kuma has 400 hit points, Naka has 2160. Fuso has 800 hit points, unless someone knows a reason why the Naka has more hit points than a battleship I'm going to assume that's an error and correct it.

12-13-14, 01:01 AM	#2
TorpX Silent Hunter Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 3,975 Downloads: 153 Uploads: 11	Yes, I stumbled upon that when I was doing ISP. And yes, I figure it must be a typo. Either that, or someone was a big fan of the Naka-class.

12-13-14, 09:34 AM	#3
torpedobait Ace of the Deep Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,057 Downloads: 397 Uploads: 0	Can you point an amateur to the directory where I could find those hit points? Thanks! __________________ Run Silent, Run Deep, and Sink 'em All

12-13-14, 06:26 PM	#4
TorpX Silent Hunter Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 3,975 Downloads: 153 Uploads: 11	In the Sea folder, the folders for the individual ships have *.zon files. You need S3d to open these. They have the hit point for the hulls of the ships. However, there are a multitude of defined zones within these ships, and the hit points and data for those are in a file zones.cfg, located elsewhere. A ship might have 10,000 pts. for the hull, but only 50 or 100 for some of the floodable zones, and so still sink easily. Thus the matter is fairly complicated. The subs and merchants in RFB 2.0 are setup this way.

12-13-14, 10:05 PM	#7
TorpX Silent Hunter Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 3,975 Downloads: 153 Uploads: 11	I know the rebound coefficient is for the impulse and resistance in collisions. I don't think it has any utility beyond that. I played with it a little to see if it affected sea-keeping, but no dice. As far as the crash depth is concerned, I didn't see much value in that either. I tried using a very high value to prevent ships from sinking in heavy seas. I couldn't see any difference. Possibly, it is the depth at which the ships go 'boom', after they sink. It doesn't seem to be terribly useful.

12-13-14, 07:42 PM	#5
Sniper297 The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Philadelphia Shipyard Brig Posts: 1,386 Downloads: 160 Uploads: 19	Specifically; http://www.subsim.com/radioroom//dow...o=file&id=4489 Like most other utilities you browse in a windows explorer type interface to \WhereverYouGotIt\Silent Hunter 4 Wolves of the Pacific\Data\Sea\NCA_Maya\NCA_Maya.zon then start poking around to see what's what. In the Maya example down at the bottom under 32: CollisionableObject is 33: CollisionableObject (no idea why they do it that way) with a bunch of changeable values; ArmorLevel = 60 Hit_Points = 500 CrashDepth = 300 CrashSpeed = 0.5 Rebound = 0.45 What exactly rebound is for is a mystery, supposedly physics governing how it bounces off something, but every ship has the exact same value. In a sub CrashDepth is the maximum depth an undamaged sub can submerge to without getting damage, below that depth it will start losing X hit points per second, X being the CrashSpeed value. If it works the same way with surface ships this heavy cruiser could sink to a depth of 990 feet with no problem, below 990 feet it would start losing half a hit point per second. Which obviously makes zero sense since a surface ship 1000 feet deep is already sunk so what's the point. I experimented with reducing the CrashDepth for assorted surface ships to 3 or 5 or whatever, but then they start breaking up and sinking due to wave action in heavy weather, so that was a dead end. You can, however, reduce the Armor to 10 and hit points to 50 in order to sink a Maya with the deck gun, or whatever kind of tweaking - sorry, can't resist - WHATEVER FLOATS YOUR BOAT! I love puns. Reason I used Maya as an example is last night, in a career I hit a Maya with 3 fish, which left it half submerged and making the screeching groaning breaking up collapsing bulkhead noises. Which went on and on and on with no further apparent damage, so I set up a test mission to see if I could fix that problem - and in the test mission I can't duplicate it, because the same unmodified Maya that takes 2 to 4 torpedoes to sink in a career will blow up with one torpedo in a single mission. If a ship has the entire main deck underwater and is howling and screaming with collapsing bulkheads and tortured metal noises, it OUGHT to SINK, but trying to get there with no reliable way to test it is like trying to get milk from a male ostrich.

12-13-14, 08:35 PM	#6
Sniper297 The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Philadelphia Shipyard Brig Posts: 1,386 Downloads: 160 Uploads: 19	Reloaded the save game, fired one more fish, making four - it missed. Whiskey Tango Fox, this thing; Is dead in the water and by all that's holy should be sunk, yet the TDC claims it's going 8 knots. Finally got disgusted, blew tanks and finished it off with 3 shots from the deck gun. In real life I could have sailed off and left it, if it didn't sink by itself one of the IJN destroyers would have finished it off (after removing the picture of the Emperor and possibly a few crewmen) since what's left wouldn't be worth towing home for repairs. One thing I liked about Microprose Silent Service series was you got credit for damaging ships that didn't sink, how Ubisoft could have missed that bit of realism is a mystery.

12-13-14, 11:04 PM	#8
merc4ulfate DILLIGAF Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: florida Posts: 2,058 Downloads: 210 Uploads: 0	CrashDepth = 300 In surface ships this is the depth at which the ship will disappear from the screen if your following it with a camera. CrashSpeed = 0.5 In surface ships this is the speed that the vessel will sink to the bottom once underwater. Rebound = 0.45 In surface ships this is the speed or force that a ship will bounce off another vessel or dock. This is also the setting for how much it will bounce off the ocean floor provided it has not past it's crashdepth. __________________ Self-education is, I firmly believe, the only kind of education there is. ~Isaac Asimov~ Mercfulfate 将補日本帝國海軍

12-14-14, 07:46 AM	#9
torpedobait Ace of the Deep Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,057 Downloads: 397 Uploads: 0	Thanks for all the info, Captains. I think I'll leave well enough alone, as the work required exceeds my interest in accuracy. I can offer this about the Maya and all IJN heavy and most light cruisers - one torpedo placed under the 2nd forward turret tends to explode the magazine taking the whole ship in a series of massive explosions. I have observed the same effect with a hit on the Takao under the stern turret. Thanks again for your information and efforts. __________________ Run Silent, Run Deep, and Sink 'em All

12-27-14, 10:10 PM	#10
Sniper297 The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Philadelphia Shipyard Brig Posts: 1,386 Downloads: 160 Uploads: 19	Alright, debunking one theory; CrashDepth = 300 In surface ships this is the depth at which the ship will disappear from the screen if your following it with a camera. CrashSpeed = 0.5 In surface ships this is the speed that the vessel will sink to the bottom once underwater. Wrong. Set up a test with a FUSO in 1500 feet of water, edited the ZON file for 30 instead of 300. Followed FUSO all the way to the bottom, no disappearing. Reset for crash depth 3, hit FUSO with a single torpedo set for 5 foot depth on the very stern - one hit, no serious damage, but about 15 minutes later (15 minutes = 900 seconds times 0.5 hit points per second = 450 hit points) she rolled over and sank. Further, in heavy seas FUSO sinks just from wave action in about 55 minutes with crash depth set at 3. So that theory is flat wrong, has nothing to do with visual tracking or speed to the bottom, like the subs it affects CRUSH damage (gotta remember this was translated from another language probably by someone who was under the mistaken illusion that he understood English) in hit points per second when something (keel depth in subs, who knows what in surface ships) is below the specified depth. The numbers for crash speed are probably accurate, but the depth is who knows what - furlongs per fortnight or something other than meters, whatever it is reducing the number from 300 makes surface ships easier to sink. I've seen several irritating instances similar to the MAYA class cruiser in the previous pictures, half sunk and making those creaking groaning screeching collapsing bulkhead breaking up noises, but near as I can tell it's not relevant to the "crash" speed or depth since it will go on for hours with no apparent change in the state of damage or depth of sinking. The key is someplace in those values, the question is 300 inches feet centimeters furlongs or rupees. Whatever it is appears to be unfinished programming, at the time the game was released they just cranked all ships except the subs to impossible numbers rather than spending time trying to tweak the sinking effects.

12-28-14, 12:22 AM	#12
ETR3(SS) Ocean Warrior Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Between test depth and periscope depth Posts: 3,021 Downloads: 175 Uploads: 16	As you've discovered crash does equal crush, with the exception of the units cfg file i.e. NSS_Balao.cfg, where crash depth equals the depth to proceed to for a crash dive. Now in so far as the units of measure for crush depth, that is measured in meters. Keep in mind this was developed in Europe where metric is the standard. __________________ USS Kentucky SSBN 737 (G) Comms Div 2003-2006 Qualified 19 November 03 Yes I was really on a submarine.

12-28-14, 02:27 AM	#13
Sniper297 The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Philadelphia Shipyard Brig Posts: 1,386 Downloads: 160 Uploads: 19	I originally assumed meters, but when I started fiddlefaddling with it I found that 5 meters = 16.5 feet didn't seem to work, either that or I was using the wrong baseline. Found the old thread; http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=212049 Which I eventually ran out of mojo and quit trying.